Covid Vaccine

Wuzzie · Dec 3, 2020

I'm going to get it when it becomes available to me because I want to see my freaking parents before they die of old age.

Jack Peace · Dec 4, 2020

On 12/2/2020 at 2:48 PM, toomuchbaloney said:

Berated?

I think people get scolded by their professional peers in this forum for a variety of reasons. Most often it's for sharing or promoting thinking which is not widely accepted as sound science or standard health practice. A nurse who prefers to refuse the covid vaccine for himself is quite a different matter than a nurse who would avoid recommending the vaccine to patients...because of his personal views.

If I thought the benefits outweighed the risks for a particular patient, I would have no problem recommending any type of vaccine. Although, I would also recommend the patient discuss it with their primary care physician as well. If you have not had a patient that tells you they have gotten shingles or influenza multiple times even after the received the vaccine, then you really aren't going into any real productive conversation with your patients. Because I heard this from numerous patients in the last 5 or 6 years.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 4, 2020

1 hour ago, Jack Peace said:

If I thought the benefits outweighed the risks for a particular patient, I would have no problem recommending any type of vaccine. Although, I would also recommend the patient discuss it with their primary care physician as well. If you have not had a patient that tells you they have gotten shingles or influenza multiple times even after the received the vaccine, then you really aren't going into any real productive conversation with your patients. Because I heard this from numerous patients in the last 5 or 6 years.

Do you encounter many patients for whom the potential risks of routine vaccination outweigh anticipated benefit?

None of the vaccines claim 100% efficacy. Vaccines which have strict storage or handling specifications may have an increased failure rate or lowered efficacy when the specs aren't maintained 100%. If someone tells you that they got influenza after receiving the influenza vaccine do you still recommend that they get vaccinated the next season? A failed vaccination is not a contradiction to subsequent vaccination.

Jack Peace · Dec 4, 2020

Well, when that's the case, I think it is applicable to discuss with them the different strains of influenza and how the vaccine is rarely, if ever at all, matching the strains that happen to be significant with that particular season. Honestly, it really is up to the patient in the end if they want to get vaccinated. But if you are asking if I will spew out the CDC narrative about "how to strongly recommend getting vaccinated to patients" I would use my nursing judgement in that. And also it is applicable to discuss the actual mortality rate of Covid if and when a patient asks for information. Depending on age, slightly more deadly for 80+ than influenza, all other age groups are less risk of dying from Covid than they are influenza. But we have to shut down businesses and schools and wear a face diaper everywhere we go ? Makes no sense. It's a complete power grab.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 4, 2020

8 minutes ago, Jack Peace said:

Well, when that's the case, I think it is applicable to discuss with them the different strains of influenza and how the vaccine is rarely, if ever at all, matching the strains that happen to be significant with that particular season. Honestly, it really is up to the patient in the end if they want to get vaccinated. But if you are asking if I will spew out the CDC narrative about "how to strongly recommend getting vaccinated to patients" I would use my nursing judgement in that. And also it is applicable to discuss the actual mortality rate of Covid if and when a patient asks for information. Depending on age, slightly more deadly for 80+ than influenza, all other age groups are less risk of dying from Covid than they are influenza. But we have to shut down businesses and schools and wear a face diaper everywhere we go ? Makes no sense. It's a complete power grab.

Your remark is mostly baloney.

Providing patient education according to your personal feelings rather than recommended schedules and current science is unprofessional. Spreading misinformation about a deadly pandemic is irresponsible and unprofessional.

Wuzzie · Dec 4, 2020

3 hours ago, Jack Peace said:

and wear a face diaper everywhere we go

Really?

NurseBlaq · Dec 4, 2020

16 hours ago, herring_RN said:

The way I think of this there ARE been peer-reviewed publications. During the months of the clinical trials the tens of thousands of volunteers did not exhibit safety concerns. The groups receiving the vaccine did produce antibodies. Among those who got a placebo many did test positive.

BUT scientists cannot yet know how long the immunity lasts. When a vaccine is offered to seniors I will check that it is probably safe after talking with my physician and NP, and be vaccinated. When the healthcare workers, nursing home residents and employees, and seniors who choose to take the vaccine I think new infections will decrease. Also our level of immunity can be studies as months go by. The peer reviewed publications state there must be more research to better understand COVID-19.

I think vaccinating people who want it is a good start.

I don't see these articles as peer-reviewed if most of their information and studies come from the drug companies that produced them. Of course they're not going to find major problems in drugs they're pushing for financial gain. No random research team has tested these drugs without a dog in this vaccine fight. I want to see long-term effects and or efficacy before I even think of getting this vaccine. Studies like these take years and they've done it in less than 1. Also, none of them answer any of my questions I keep presenting in this thread. If people who have been infected don't have lasting immunity, how will any of these vaccines ensure immunity, and for how long? There are also different strands. So how many of those strands do these vaccines cover? There are cases where people have been reinfected. Was it by the same strand or a different strand? Do the vaccines account for that? Protect against it? I have more questions than answers. And let's also not forget they change the numbers on demand to outdo the rival companies. I just can't/won't do it until there's more concrete evidence AND follow up results.

Wuzzie · Dec 4, 2020

34 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

If people who have been infected don't have lasting immunity, how will any of these vaccines ensure immunity, and for how long?

https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(20)30445-3

34 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

There are also different strands. So how many of those strands do these vaccines cover?

34 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

There are cases where people have been reinfected. Was it by the same strand or a different strand?

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-vaccines-should-work-for-all-strains-mutations-2020-11

34 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

Do the vaccines account for that?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200803105246.htm

Your questions are perfectly valid and should be answered and will be answered with a little more time...which, sadly, some of us don't have an abundance of. Granted, not all of these are scholarly or peer reviewed but I work directly with an ID doctor (also a PhD in epidemiology) and he gave these a thumbs up as basic but accurate. Well, except for the first one that took me four hours and a dictionary to wade through.

allnurses Guide · Dec 4, 2020

4 hours ago, Jack Peace said:

Well, when that's the case, I think it is applicable to discuss with them the different strains of influenza and how the vaccine is rarely, if ever at all, matching the strains that happen to be significant with that particular season. Honestly, it really is up to the patient in the end if they want to get vaccinated. But if you are asking if I will spew out the CDC narrative about "how to strongly recommend getting vaccinated to patients" I would use my nursing judgement in that. And also it is applicable to discuss the actual mortality rate of Covid if and when a patient asks for information. Depending on age, slightly more deadly for 80+ than influenza, all other age groups are less risk of dying from Covid than they are influenza. But we have to shut down businesses and schools and wear a face diaper everywhere we go ? Makes no sense. It's a complete power grab.

The equivalent of four jumbo jets are going down daily killing everyone on board. DAILY. Influenza death rates in the US don't come anywhere NEAR these statistics and it is obvious you get your information only from biased sources.

A power grab? Face diapers? First of all, if you are a medical professional you know better than to try to make an argument this way. Second, who exactly is benefiting from this? Not one dang person. The idea that this is somehow a political conspiracy is so beyond ridiculous. For the love of Mike, please stop talking so that the professionals, who are weary, tired, depressed and sick to death of people like you, can get back to the honorable part of this, which is saving lives. You can rant anywhere you like. Please stop doing it here.

MgoBlue, BSN · Dec 4, 2020

What bothers me is when people say they won't get the vaccine because they don't know the "long-term effects" yet. Fine, that's agreeable when the world is not in a devastating pandemic and the only way to go back to some ~normalcy~ will be to vaccinate. By the time we know the "long-term effects", hundreds of thousands more people will be dead.

Also, we certainly do not know the long-term effects of having had COVID-19 either. For all we know, all COVID survivors may have end stage lung disease in 5 years.

That's just my opinion. Trust the science.

MunoRN, RN · Dec 4, 2020

On 12/2/2020 at 10:05 AM, Jack Peace said:

Those people are also at a higher risk of falling, higher risk of influenza, higher risk of resp and cardiac failure, higher risk of cardiac arrest, higher risk of common cold, higher risk of bacterial pneumonia. Anyone who is immunocompromised in any way whether that is due to comorbidities, nutrition, obesity, old age is going to be at a "higher risk" of developing many different ailments. You have to accept the fact that this vaccine is not going to widely accepted. Deal with it.

Ever since Florence Nightingale pointed out to surgeons that they were risking harm to their patients by not washing their hands before performing surgery, calling out these reckless practices is how we as nurses "deal with it". Just as you're getting called out for essentially arguing the modern version of the argument that there's no reason to wash your hands before sticking them in someone's open abdomen.

You're correct though that hospitalized patients are at higher risks for a number of complications, and it's our job as nurses to mitigate those as much is possible, which includes preventing ourselves from spreading Covid to them.

I'm not sure where you keep getting the idea that a competent immune system prevents risk from Covid, I think you're thinking of susceptibility to bacterial infections. Viral illnesses like Covid rely on a functional immune system, that's how they work, they use your immune system against you. That doesn't mean your better off being immuno-compromised, that carries it's own mortality risks with a viral infection, but a strong immune system isn't reliable protection either.

9 hours ago, Jack Peace said:

Well, when that's the case, I think it is applicable to discuss with them the different strains of influenza and how the vaccine is rarely, if ever at all, matching the strains that happen to be significant with that particular season. Honestly, it really is up to the patient in the end if they want to get vaccinated. But if you are asking if I will spew out the CDC narrative about "how to strongly recommend getting vaccinated to patients" I would use my nursing judgement in that. And also it is applicable to discuss the actual mortality rate of Covid if and when a patient asks for information. Depending on age, slightly more deadly for 80+ than influenza, all other age groups are less risk of dying from Covid than they are influenza. But we have to shut down businesses and schools and wear a face diaper everywhere we go ? Makes no sense. It's a complete power grab.

The case mortality rate of Covid is between 2 and 3%, the case mortality rate from influenza is less than 0.1%. You really need to stop completely made up 'facts'.

Marc Goodman, BSN · Dec 4, 2020

22 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

I'm going to get it when it becomes available to me because I want to see my freaking parents before they die of old age.

Agreed. For me, its time to get vaccinated and start to move on with life and not fear killing my parents if I see them. I've already had covid and likely have some immunity already. I figure if I encounter something my B cells will probably churn out antibodies and t-cells will jump into action, but what if I get hit by a high concentration of virus at work and its too much for me to handle at once? I do work in a hospital after all where the sickest patients come. I work in NYC, we were first in the country to see the amount of death this brings. I'm all about getting a booster and having circulating antibodies again, even if its just for 3 months to be able to get through the Winter with a hope that numbers will go down again in the Summer. I'll be the first in line for vaccination and will be happy that I won't have a ton of competition.

I completely understand those that are hesitant and want to see more studies and longitudinal safety. But please understand that while those folks are still debating if they should get vaccinated and wondering if work will kill them, I'll be having a physically distanced vacation on the beach with a cocktail in my hand. It really depends on your risk tolerance, but hey covid is pretty risky as well. Also, it was no fun to be sick for a week, wondering if I was going to die, and returning to work only to be surrounded by death.