I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I really just had to ask
Can a CNA be considered a nurse?
I mean, I have always been led to believe that CNA stood for certified nursing assistant. An assistant to a nurse and not a nurse.
The reason why I ask is because I've ran into quite a few people that say they are nurses, then when I try to go into it more (seeing as I have interest in the nursing field), they say they are CNA's.
But then when I was in the brief period of LVN school and was talking to a CNA, she had no clue about some of the things LVN's did much less RN's.
lizz.. Could they be asking you to do all these LVN/LPN/RN duties because they know you are going thru to become an RN? Maybe they are just asking you to do such things so you can "practice?"
No. They know it's illegal for them to do it while I'm working as a CNA. I'm only allowed to do those things on my student nurse days. They could get in big trouble with the BRN for doing it, but the lazy RN's try to get away with it anyway because ... well ... they're lazy.
]Fine ... let's talk about the responsibilities. Because when you look at the responsibilities, it's pretty obvious that CNA's are, in fact, nurses.
RN's are responsible for the CNA's. If the CNA's weren't there the RN's would have to do the same duties. CNA's do what RN's would have to do anyway because, by extension, CNA's are doing nursing care. Yet, they're not nurses?
As an RN I will still consider CNA's nurses because they are, in fact, doing the nursing care that RN's would have to do if the CNA's weren't there
tHE CNA's are doing manual labor that frees up the RN/LPN. Yes, that is stuff the RN would have to do if you werent there. But taking vitals, accuchecks, feeding a patient, changing linens, bathing-no nursing judgement required. these are skills that hte licensed nurse can delegate to a non-nurse.
And even if these are "nursing skills", knowing how to do some nursing skills does not make one a nurse. Student nurses do some nursing skills, yet, they are not nurses.
Being a nurse is more than doing some skills. It is, as another poster mentioned, the nursing process all together. It is the sum of all parts-assessment, teaching, planning, evaluation, delegation,nursing judgement,documentation, communication, knowledge, caring, etc etc etc. One must know all the parts, and be responsible for all of them to be a nurse. Possessing just one of them does not a nurse make. It is not possible for a CNA to possess all of these, they simply haven't had the education.
I agree with you, why is everyone still beating the deadhorse. We all know that CNA's along with a whole lot of other qualified professionals are not nurses. But, does that make them any less valuble than anyone else. No it does not, they are an integral part of the medical community. I have to say if someone has issues with not being called a nurse then they need to go to nursing school to become a nurse. Simple as that, problem solved.
fine ... let's talk about the responsibilities. because when you look at the responsibilities, it's pretty obvious that cna's are, in fact, nurses.
rn's are responsible for the cna's. if the cna's weren't there the rn's would have to do the same duties. cna's do what rn's would have to do anyway because, by extension, cna's are doing nursing care. yet, they're not nurses?
as an rn i will still consider cna's nurses because they are, in fact, doing the nursing care that rn's would have to do if the cna's weren't there.
lizz,
i work 12 hr shifts beginning at 1900/7pm. the majority of cnas i work with do 8hr shifts, the afternoon cnas start at 1500/3pm. there are usually 3 scheduled for 1500 and 2300. in the 4 hours i spend with the afternoon cnas, i will have answered more call lights, emptied more urinals, changed more linen, turned & positioned more patients with another rn, assisted more patients on the bedpan, provided more water/snacks to patients, cleaned more poop, assisted more patients to ambulate to br or hallway, assisted more patients from stretcher to bed with a transporter, run more ragged by patients/families/doctors/etc, than any of the 3 cna will have done in their entire 8 hour shift and i am not exagerating. the cnas will do vs (and not always report abnormal ones), chemsticks, i & os (and record them wrong frequently, that i have to correct later), and draw a few labs (that sometimes they "forget" to do), and not one thing more than those tasks unless specifically asked (if you can find one). i have had cnas try to refuse a request like "please do vs on that new pt" because "that's not my patient" while they are sitting on their a$$e$ surfing the internet, and then cop an attitude when i insist that they do them. they get their hour break and leave on time, i don't. the cnas i work with are not interested in team work. i have never asked a cna for help because i didn't feel like doing something, i only ask when i need it. in fact i am doing all of the care that the cnas could/should be doing. that is the reality of the unit i am on. but i'm sure you think i'm the one who has the attitude, yep me and the 27 other rns who have to work there.
are all cnas like the ones i described? absolutely not. sometime you just get a bad group of cnas in one place, i've also seen units that have had bad groups of rns on them. maybe that's your situation, i don't know. the work situation i'm in makes me really appreciate and respect the wonderful cnas out there.
should anyone be disrespectful towards a cna because they are a cna? absolutely not. nor should cnas be disrespectful towards rns/lpns. respect goes both ways. yes, i've seen rns look down their noses at cnas, but you know what, they usually look down their noses at everyone else to.
are there excellent cnas? you betcha. 2 midnight cnas are absolutely awesome, several cnas who have floated from other units made me think i'd died and went to heaven. put a couple of cnas who are hard working, do their job in a professional manner, care about the patients, work with me, and i'm in hog heaven. it sounds like you work with some hard working cnas, it wonderful that you appreciate that. i hope you continue to work with wonderful cnas, because they're priceless. how well a cna does their job impacts how well an rn can do their job.
do i think cnas should be proud of what they do and who they are? absolutely. their role and function in a healthcare setting has enormous value. i don't use sentence with "just a" or "only" in reference to cnas, because those words are putdowns when placed in front of the letters cna.
"fine...let's talk about responsibilities. because when you look at the responsibilities, it's pretty obvious that cna's are in fact, nurses." it's not obvious to me what responsibilities you're talking about or are referring to. responsibility implies accountability. they may have a responsiblity to do the job they were employed to do and there may be recriminations by their employer if they don't meet that responsibility, but that is true with any job.
"rn's are responsible for cna's. if the cna's weren't there the rns would have to do the same duties. cna's do what rn's would have to do anyway by extension, cna's are doing nursing care. yet they're not nurses?" you're right that there is a lot of care that rns would have to do themselves if cnas were not there. rns do provide the care that cnas do irregardless of whether they are there or not. cnas do not do what rns would do by extension, i don't see that. cnas can provide some aspects of nursing care, but there is a lot more that they cannot provide in regards to nursing care.
tHE CNA's are doing manual labor that frees up the RN/LPN. Yes, that is stuff the RN would have to do if you werent there. But taking vitals, accuchecks, feeding a patient, changing linens, bathing-no nursing judgement required.
That's not entirely true. I expect that a CNA has at least some nursing judgement such as:
1. Not feeding a patient while they are slouched down in the bed or head flat
2. Not taking BP's in arms that have a dialysis access
3. Watching lines and tubes while turning someone when bathing or changing linens so they don't get pulled out in the turning process
4. Understanding that if you walk into a room and see that a patient has pulled their trach or central line out whether you should get help right away or wait until you've finished taking all of your vital signs.
5. Understanding that if you take an accu-check and it is very low with a patient telling you he feels funny whether you should tell the nurse right away or after you come back from lunch.
All of the nursing tasks that you've listed require nursing judgement on some level, most lay people would not undertstand these things or react appropriately unless maybe they've had experience taking care of a loved one so nursing judgement is definitely involved here.
No it doesn't make you a licensed nurse because you can competently perform all of these tasks but I'm not comfortable with the way you've oversimplified the importance of these nursing tasks.
Having an "Anybody can do this job" kind of attitude (in addition to the poor pay and high workload) is one of the biggest reasons that facilities have so many bad CNA's and why I hopefully won't ever again have to work in an area where I have to depend on them for help as I've been burned many times by some.
It's obvious to me that not anyone can do this job even though some managers will literally hire anyone to do it.
It requires among many other things, but most of all, sound judgement and the ability to prioritize, and I've worked with some (not all) who posess neither quality and have no business taking care of patients.
I could also say the same about some RN's and LVN's I've worked with.
BTW Lizz, tell us about the type of unit you work on, how many patients you are assigned to and the level of care required of them on a typical day such as how many need to be fed, how many are non-ambulatory or incontinent, confused climbing out of bed types, etc. because maybe everyone could get a better picture of where you are coming from.
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
I feel bad for you, I can literally feel your frustration when reading your posts. It sounds like you are in a pretty bad situation. I know what you mean. I worked for several years as a pt care tech(aka: nursing asst/aide) while going to school. I did work LTC and, boy was it rough! Fortunately, I was able to get into a hospital system and was able to find my niche and things ended up working out great. The RN's I worked w/taught me so much about the area I now practice in.
But, originally, I used to resent the RN's I worked w/so much! I felt much of what you verbalize. But you know what....that's what kind of motivated me to move on and move up, I knew I could be an RN, and I was not going to like one of them! Let this experience be a lesson to you and be a motivator. But don't let it turn you off of nursing or being an RN, cause one of these days you will be one.
Perhaps, you could get a job in a hopsital as a pt care tech, I think it might be a little better, plus the learning opportunities will be there. And, most definitely, learn now, to a) prioritize and b) verbalize....to the RN what your priorities are and reiterate the fact that you can't be in 5 places at 1 time. If she has different priorities fo you, fine, make her aware of what you are not going to be able to get done at that specific time, ultimately, it is her responsibility!
That's not entirely true. I expect that a CNA has at least some nursing judgement such as:
1. Not feeding a patient while they are slouched down in the bed or head flat
2. Not taking BP's in arms that have a dialysis access
3. Watching lines and tubes while turning someone when bathing or changing linens so they don't get pulled out in the turning process
4. Understanding that if you walk into a room and see that a patient has pulled their trach or central line out whether you should get help right away or wait until you've finished taking all of your vital signs.
5. Understanding that if you take an accu-check and it is very low with a patient telling you he feels funny whether you should tell the nurse right away or after you come back from lunch.
All of the nursing tasks that you've listed require nursing judgement on some level, most lay people would not undertstand these things or react appropriately unless maybe they've had experience taking care of a loved one so nursing judgement is definitely involved here.
No it doesn't make you a licensed nurse because you can competently perform all of these tasks but I'm not comfortable with the way you've oversimplified the importance of these nursing tasks.
Having an "Anybody can do this job" kind of attitude (in addition to the poor pay and high workload) is one of the biggest reasons that facilities have so many bad CNA's and why I hopefully won't ever again have to work in an area where I have to depend on them for help as I've been burned many times by some.
It's obvious to me that not anyone can do this job even though some managers will literally hire anyone to do it.
It requires among many other things, but most of all, sound judgement and the ability to prioritize, and I've worked with some (not all) who posess neither quality and have no business taking care of patients.
I could also say the same about some RN's and LVN's I've worked with.
BTW Lizz, tell us about the type of unit you work on, how many patients you are assigned to and the level of care required of them on a typical day such as how many need to be fed, how many are non-ambulatory or incontinent, confused climbing out of bed types, etc. because maybe everyone could get a better picture of where you are coming from.
I don't mean to sound rude but I don't really agree with you. I don't consider your examples listed as demonstrating the use of nursing judgement. Not doing a bp in an arm with a dialysis catheter or not feeding a patient who is slouched down does not require what I would consider nursing judgement. Those are things that CNAs are trained to do. They are taught how to take a blood pressure and what to look for to make sure that an arm is appropriate to use (such as an iv being in the way). Also, they are taught to feed a patient correctly. They did not have to make a decision based on their assessment of the patient. They simply have been taught that you are to feed a patient in an upright position due to risk of aspiration. So as part of the task of feeding the patient, they positioned the patient accordingly to correctly feed the patient. They are taught to do skills in the same sense that an RN is taught to put down an NG tube or start and IV. I bet that many RNs would be angry if the job of an RN was described as only doing skills. There is so much more that is involved. It is a thought process that is based off education and experience that is used to make a judgement of what intervention to take based on their assessment.
In our hospital the CNA's (I am a CNA) are recognized during Nurses Week and are considered Non Licensed Nurses (as per our management) While I never refer to myself as a Nurse I have been told by many an RN/LVN that I am a valuable member of the nursing team and thus a nurse. In my state I had to take a state exam to become certified. Both written and skills.
Hey Lizz I am a CNA in Southern California too. I share many of your views. I have been at this for 3 years and I am just now starting my LVN program. I have been asked many times why I didn't just go right for RN and you know why? Because the LVN is quicker and I will be able to NOT be a CNA anymore sooner. There have been so many times I have wanted to quit (I love my job, don't get me wrong) But the conditions under which us CNA's have to work right now SUCK! Most of the time I am the ONLY CNA for a 31 bed floor. I am responsible for ALL the vitals at 8AM, noon, and 4PM and charting them (although not every patient is a Q4 vital) I am also then responsible for 10 patients bath and linen change and anything else those 10 need (toileting, walks, if they vomit) But then if I am the only CNA on the floor and get asked to change a patient that I was not assigned to and I tell the RN I am busy then I get the evil eye and "She is a slacker" Come on now! I do spend more time with the patients and I do care, and I have held many a hand of a patient who is crying and scared. Do I consider myself a nurse? You bet, a non licensed nurse. Would I ever share this info with a patient? No Way. I have pateints call me Nurse as in "Nurse, can you get me some more water?" I just get them the water, but I don't go into, Oh I am not a nurse,blah, blah, blah. I don't think the patient cares most of the time as long as they get their needs met. I am not a registered nurse, I am not a licensed vocational nurse but I am a nursing assistant, or assistant nurse. Our duties consist of BASIC NURSING SKILLS. If that isn't being a nurse, then I don't know what is. Believe me I am working towards becoming an LVN and then I plan on bridging to RN. I hope that when I am an LVN I will never disrespect any CNA in some of the ways that I have been disrespected.
EDITED TO SAY: That when I do enter a patient room at the beginning of my shift I say "Hi I am Shannon, the Nursing Assistant and I am here to take your vitals" I never refer to myself as the NURSE. I then tell them who their Nurse will be and write her name on the board.
This is yet another reason why I will be quitting my job as a CNA ... this is typical of the disrespect CNA's have to endure day after day. You care for and interact with the patient more than anybody else yet, you're not even considered a "nurse."
The hospital/facility assigns you too many patients where it's impossible give adequate care. Nevertheless, you run yourself ragged trying to satisfy the patients, the families, the RNs, the doctors, etc. ... all for a measily wage.
All day long you are up to your elbows in diarrhea, urine, vomit, blood .... all of the nasty things that nobody else wants to deal with ...
Yet, at the end of the day, you're rewarded with complaints that you didn't work hard enough and people who constantly remind you that you deserve no respect because you're not a real "nurse."
In my home state of California 80 percent of CNA's quit within the first few weeks on the job. Well ... I certainly understand why and I'll be joining them.
I am in nursing school and will be an RN one day. But I will never forget the abuse and disrespect I have experienced as a CNA. I find these kinds of attitudes toward CNA's appalling.
Am I reading this correctly? Some here believe they are nurses because they are CNA's and perform some duties that a nurse does?
If that is the case, then why go to nursing school at all?
I'm sorry, but I believe, even after reading all the posts, it is irresponsible (and yes, in many states illegal, and also unethical) to consider yourself a nurse when you are not. When I'm in clinical, I'm a student nurse. When I had to call 911 recently when a child was seriously injured at the ballfield, the 911 operator asked me if any medical personnel was present. I told her I was a SN and LNA, but that I was the only one there with medical training at the time. And I was clear that I was NOT an RN or LPN, only a SN and LNA.
And when I work as an LNA, I'm a nursing assistant, not a nurse, no matter what duties I perform (and of course only those I can do within the scope of my license).
When I become a nurse, I will drop the LNA title and refer to myself as an RN. I am working hard for my education, putting myself way into debt, missing my children, have a marriage breaking up, and serious money problems. So when I get my RN, I will have EARNED it, in many, many ways. And while I will certainly appreciate the LNA's I will work with, I will resent any of them referring to themselves as nurses after what I'm going through to get my degree.
I am a CNA. I am not a nurse. What I do is vital to the health of our patients, so I consider myself a vital member of the healthcare team. What I do assists the nurses to provide good medical care to our patients, so I consider myself an assistant to the nurses. I have never acquired the knowledge and skills needed to qualify as a LPN or RN. Rather than lower our standards for what qualifies as nursing, I believe strongly in tightening our requirements: the number of mistakes in healthcare is staggering! Actually, I hope we could rename the nursing assistant to clarify our role and prevent confusion for the patients. Don't get me wrong, my dream was to become a nurse. But I am not.
Sheri257
3,905 Posts
No. They know it's illegal for them to do it while I'm working as a CNA. I'm only allowed to do those things on my student nurse days. They could get in big trouble with the BRN for doing it, but the lazy RN's try to get away with it anyway because ... well ... they're lazy.