I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I really just had to ask
Can a CNA be considered a nurse?
I mean, I have always been led to believe that CNA stood for certified nursing assistant. An assistant to a nurse and not a nurse.
The reason why I ask is because I've ran into quite a few people that say they are nurses, then when I try to go into it more (seeing as I have interest in the nursing field), they say they are CNA's.
But then when I was in the brief period of LVN school and was talking to a CNA, she had no clue about some of the things LVN's did much less RN's.
My interpretation of these sub-sections, and I'm not a lawyer but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, is that the "anything else" clause afforded to registered nurses allows an RN to call himself a "nurse." Furthermore, since licensed practical nurses are not afforded such a clause, are told which titles they may use, and are specifically prohibited from representing themselves as "registered, licensed, graduate or professional nurse," LPNs may not refer to themselves as "nurses" in the state of Wisconsin.
In Florida, some ADN programs teach that an LPN/LVN is not a "nurse". I was taught this in Nursing school.
Do I agree with that? No. But I do know that concept is taught in places.
Of course, said program also "taught" us...they didn't "train" us.
Sadly, if the RN's at your hospital have told you you are a nurse, then they are very mistaken and are also risking their licenses as well (depending on what they ask you to do).
I've had at least 2 say I was, both RNs (one with a BSN). No one has asked me to do something out of my scope, though.
By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that this thread will be closed. Some strong emotions are starting to control it.
Again, I really meant no harm in asking the original question.
I don't mean to be rude, but just because a few people say or do something doesn't mean it is right. Been that and done that too many times and been corrected many times to boot. Remember the old saying of "if they jumped off the bridge, would you?"
I will ALWAYS, ALWAYS treat anybody I work with, from CNAs to Doctors and any others, with respect, that is just me. But a title is a title is a title. I know there are plenty of nurses out there that have been working for ages that know more than some of the doctors they work with, but those nurses shouldn't be called doctors either.
Sometimes, I wonder what new grads today (or the younger nurses) are looking for. They seem so dissatisfied. Maybe it is because they have not had enough training. Many nursing schools today certainly do NOT give their students the dose of reality that they need.
Try to read the previous posts before you judge me, and my school.
As I previously pointed out, I am working both as a CNA and a student nurse extern, which means I am receiving additional training to become an RN. This work program is sponsored by my school, which has given me a huge amount of training and a huge "dose of reality."
That dose of reality, BTW, includes a ton of abuse from RN's when I work the CNA portion of the job, where the impossible demands that are placed upon me compromise patient care. So yes, I am dissatisifed, because that reality forces me to make compromises I can't live with.
Ok, then explain the reasons you feel CNA's need to be considered nurses. I would imagine when you do become a nurse and gain the responsiblity of a RN you will not feel this way...
Fine ... let's talk about the responsibilities. Because when you look at the responsibilities, it's pretty obvious that CNA's are, in fact, nurses.
RN's are responsible for the CNA's. If the CNA's weren't there the RN's would have to do the same duties. CNA's do what RN's would have to do anyway because, by extension, CNA's are doing nursing care. Yet, they're not nurses?
As an RN I will still consider CNA's nurses because they are, in fact, doing the nursing care that RN's would have to do if the CNA's weren't there.
The true core of nursing involves assessment and nursing diagnosis. The tasks that some of you seem to believe constitute all of nursing spring from that. True nursing involves returning a patient to an optimal state of health through assessment, planning, intervention and evaluation. True nurses are accountable for their actions both legally and professionally. CNAs do none of that. Do they perform some nursing actions? Yes, so do phlebotomists, dieticians, respiratory therapists and physical therapists. We all perform components of each others' jobs depending on where we work but we are not interchangeable.
I used to be a nurse tech in school. My experience sounds exactly what Lizz describes so I know how awful CNAs are treated and trust me I have never forgotten it and it has been 15 years. But CNAs are NOT nurses and any nurse who is going around telling them that they are should be ashamed of him/herself because they should know better.
Fine ... let's talk about the responsibilities. Because when you look at the responsibilities, it's pretty obvious that CNA's are, in fact, nurses.
RN's are responsible for the CNA's. If the CNA's weren't there the RN's would have to do the same duties. CNA's do what RN's would have to do anyway because, by extension, CNA's are doing nursing care. Yet, they're not nurses?
As an RN I will still consider CNA's nurses because they are, in fact, doing the nursing care that RN's would have to do if the CNA's weren't there.
Lizz, that's some pretty faulty logic there. At one hospital I worked they removed all the phlebotomists and the nurses had to do it, so are phlebotomists nurses?
When the unit clerk doesn't show up and the nurses have to take off the orders because they are doing the work that the unit clerk would normally do, are the unit clerk nurses?
I worked somewhere else where the nurses had to strip the beds after discharge since housekeeping refused to do it, as well as empty suction canisters so when housekeeping was doing it were they nursing?
Wow! It's hot in here. Everyone needs to take a deep breath. We've all been in compromising positions in any facit of life. Unfortunately there will always be people that bully us around and try to deminish who we are and what we do. A bully is someone who lacks self-esteem and has to lower other people to make themselves feel better about who they are.
The essence of the question was "is a CNA a nurse?" Not in the court of law and should never be referred to as one. That doesn't mean that the CNA's function is any less valued. They are assistants, and should only handle duties they are hired for. Unfortunately you have (and I'm sure many have) encountered some individuals that think too much of themselves and/or are lazy.
Maybe this forum is really dealing with folks who want to change the parameters of the profession and the law. Until the laws are changed we have to be adults and abide by your licensure.
Please respect yourself and you will be shown respect. Never, Never compromise your beliefs, you may be asked to defend your actions.
I sign this off as a mother and a friend, "kill 'em with kindness".
I guess people are missing the broader point here. Do I think CNA's should violate the law and call themselves nurses. No. Do I think the law is wrong? Yes. I'm trying to get people to look beyond the legal definitions here.
Maybe I've had too many bad experiences with RN's lately but, quite frankly, too many RN's are asking me to do their assessments for them as a CNA. They're not supposed to do that, but they do it anyway. I'm constantly asked to evaluate stages of pressure sores, etc. where the RN doesn't even look at the patient. Then I'm instructed to do all of this detailed wound care that is supposed to be done by an LVN or RN. I have to remind them I can't do that as a CNA yet, they give me grief for it.
People talk about assessment, diagnosis, etc. but I'm not seeing much of it, even when I work as a student nurse. I can barely get the RN's into the room when the patient is screaming in pain, much less for anything else. With all of the quickie admits and discharges, the most anybody does is stabilize the patient and move on. There's too much pressure to discharge and admit so the money keeps rolling in.
I wasn't trying to suggest that a unit secretary or phlebotomist who occassionally helps out is a nurse. But, for all practical purposes, the CNA is the eyes and ears of the RN and, when you get a particularly lazy RN, a lot more than that. Why CNA's aren't considered nurses when they are often the only person in the room caring for the patient is beyond me.
I respect the work of nursing assisstants. I love my assisstants and I could not do my job without them. But I have several problems with assisstants calling themselves nurses.
First, CNAs/UAPs are not a nurses. The work of nursing assistants is strictly manual labor. Assisstants, by law, are not allowed to perform assessments of any kind. They do not have the fundational knowledge of health and illness that nurses do. If they are making patient judgements, they are practicing outside their scope. Their job is task oriented. Critical thinking and decision making is the job and the training of the RN.
Second, one major problem we as nurses face is gaining respect from other professionals. Nursing requires a lot of schooling, money, and dedication. When one misrepresents themself as a nurse, it only protentiates the belief that nursing is a vocational job...one that can gained with only a few weeks of training.
Third, in most hospitals today everyone wears scrubs. It is easy for patients to become confused over who is caring for them when housekeeping, dietary, and RNs are all wearing the same uniforms. Everyone needs to be clear to patients about their position and what their responsibilities are. I do not want my patients telling vital information necessary for my plannning of their care to the housekeeper or the assisstant and not me.
In conclusion, can't we all just get along;-)
We should be this passionate about handwashing...we would probaly save 50,000 lives a year!
I'm sorry you have had such miserable experiences. That hospital you work for should be shut down! I am happy to say in all my experience as a SN and an RN I have never seen any nurses pawn off their nursing assessments to CNAs. They should be fired!
I asked, "Is a CNA a nurse?" I did not ask, "Do you think CNAs should be considered nurses?"
lizz.. Could they be asking you to do all these LVN/LPN/RN duties because they know you are going thru to become an RN? Maybe they are just asking you to do such things so you can "practice?"
But I am not saying that the nurses that pile stuff on top of you are right. I know that the CNA I worked with did not want to advance and wanted to stay as a CNA. She didn't do anything other than CNA duties and she had no clue about anything other than CNA duties. So personally, I would never have called her a nurse.
caroladybelle, BSN, RN
5,486 Posts
In Florida, some ADN programs teach that an LPN/LVN is not a "nurse". I was taught this in Nursing school.
Do I agree with that? No. But I do know that concept is taught in places.
Of course, said program also "taught" us...they didn't "train" us.