What we say and what we do.... - page 2

In the last couple of days/weeks, I have been noticing some things on this website that troubles me. On more than just a few occasions, I have read whole threads, where there is a "discussion", or... Read More

  1. by   CaLLaCoDe
    great post op, really outdid yourself!

    i found this latin term recently and it is very apprapo to your disfavoring personal jabs when arguing a point. it is called argumentum ad hominem (arguing against the man and not the ideas presented). i think that really distracts from winning a point of argument when you make fun of a persons name or call them a troll...and this is played out again and again on those concervative talke shows and sometimes liberal talk shows as well. this has got to stop!
  2. by   kanzi monkey
    I don't know if you are taking the word "troll" to mean some large, ugly anthropomorphic creature with a brain the size of a pea and a club the size of Florida--or the internet version of troll as defined by the master of uncertain definition:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    this seems not quite as cruel, but more of a heads up--suggesting the poster was more of a trickster trying to get the masses riled up.
  3. by   Indy
    I have noticed this board is quite its own creature, so to speak. It is hosted on the internet, so there are some features that you will find on most other bulletin boards; but it is also made up of nurses.

    So. Troll is where you make statements to incite the crowd into some kind of frenzy. As for people agreeing and disagreeing on topics, and/or turning on the OP, I've seen it happen in many other boards than this one, and it'll probably continue to happen.

    It's an extended discussion basically. Extended both through time and space, and you have things happen here that simply can not happen in the breakroom at work. People can act nastier, if they choose. People can also take time to listen to everything the rest of the folks said and then think about their response - also something that's rare in real life.

    This board, as far as I'm concerned, has better manners than a lot of boards the world over.
  4. by   TheCommuter
    I understand what you're trying to convey, CRNI. When I first joined these forums nearly 3 years ago, I was accused of being a troll for creating a thread that asked a simple question: "Why are doctors so rude?"

    I was a student at the time, and nursing was very new to me. Some people do not realize that caustic responses to innocent queries, incorrect assumptions, and personal attacks just might be enough to keep new members from ever returning and contributing anything meaningful.
  5. by   imenid37
    I do not know very much about dementia. I fell like I have it sometimes, but that is a whole other story. I remember a thread a number of months back re. exclusive breastfeeding. It seems maybe this and the issue of communicating w/ those w/ dementia are two hot-button issues. I remember strongly disagreeing w/ the OP in the breastfeeding thread. She had read a lot and done a lot of research. You have to respect her for that. Based on that she formed her opinion. My opinion was formed based on experience and reading research. We came to different conclusions. It doesn't mean I couldn't respect her. Her feelings were very hurt. I do not see her post very much anymore. That's too bad. She had some really good things to say. I think people try to be honest her re. what they think. That's great because you can't always be honest at work w/o stepping on toes. When someone has an opinion that I do not agree with, I tell them. When I think their opinion might be altered by having more experience, I tell them that. I do not think people are unintelligent if they do not have years of experience. I do think they often have a different perspective than me. (Experience does have value in nursing, as does evidence based practice.) That's okay. Is that not one big reason why the board is here? I have learned so much from other people and I appreciate their honesty. I think sometimes if you are strong in your opinions, then you may really be bowled over by someone who thinks your white is black and vise versa. Like prmenrs and others have said, frank rudeness or insult should be reported, but otherwise, I think honest expression of a difference of opinion is often a welcome relief in this totally pc world.
  6. by   Tweety
    I think of the 1000's of posts made on a daily basis the membership is overwhelmingly supportive, kind, understanding and that the moderators do a reasonably well job at weeding out those who violate terms of service. We indeed appreciate those who report.

    That a few posts and people are negative and trollish does not mean by no means there is a trend.

    Some people do get bitter that their hands are slapped while they presume others are let off the hook (which may or may not be true), or we miss a post and they scream "well what about them". It still doesn't make their being a troll right just because another troll slips by.

    Keep your own side of the street clean first and foremost.
  7. by   rn/writer
    Ah yes, I remember this thread well. Maybe some context would help to clarify.

    One the very first page, #8 (I'll call her this as that was the number of her first post in this thread) posted some strong opinions that included harsh criticism of seasoned nurses:

    "Therapeutic lying" is absolutely inappropriate. It is unethical and in my opinion, it implies pure laziness on the Nurse's part. Telling the patient what you think 'they want to hear' does nothing for them therapeutically.
    It's sad that so many Nurses just take the easy way out by 'pacifying' these people.
    Did people jump all over her for these fighting words? No. She received many articulate responses urging her to consider the viewpoint of nurses who had many years of experience (she had none) dealing with this population. She also had a number of people try to explain where she was mistaken in her definitions and her approach. Her response was to continue to call the other nurses lazy and unethical. At one point, she stated that nurses who were trying to meet the dementia patients in their reality were just projecting their own feelings onto the patients. According to her, the patients needed to be reoriented to reality, even if it caused them great distress. She said that the resulting anguish could be therapeutic.

    It took six or seven pages for any real impatience to show. The negative remarks you cited were addressed in short order by one of the mods, but I'm sure the posters who made them were voicing a frustration that others shared. It is unusual for someone with no experience in a particular area to take such a rigid stance, complete with insults and accusations directed at those who tried to offer well-reasoned dissent.

    I actually read through this entire thread (and have the headache to prove it), and what I saw were pages and pages and pages of good input, interesting acecdotes, links and citations of supporting data, kind and compassionate suggestions for caring for this vulnerable population, and even defense of #8.

    I wonder why moderators don't put some sort of "kabosh" on people who repeatedly and personally attack people....not the IDEA, but the PERSON.....there is a distinct difference, but just like in most bullying situations, the onlookers tend to look the other way.....and I wonder why, when you have threads about lateral violence, and nurses bullying others, you allow that to happen here right under your eyeglasses, with nary a finger wag.
    There were a handful of snippy comments. These were met with moderator redirects, including the following:

    Once again, I need to remind everyone that continued negativity toward [#8] will not be tolerated. State your opinion without referring to her in any way. Members who hold an unpopular opinion need to be prepared to hear plenty of dissenting reactions, BUT they do not need to be ridiculed, scolded, shamed, or spoken of in any other way that makes the discussion personal.
    I think that qualifies as both a kibosh and a finger wag. Let me point out, too, that board discipline is a private matter. Members can be assessed points for inappropriate remarks and this is a matter that is between them and the staff.

    It isn't bullying to challenge someone's thinking or to inquire about their experience level or to ask for supporting data. As they say on Law & Order, this goes to credibility. In retrospect, I believe the other members behaved themselves pretty well, especially considering the way #8 repeatedly made insulting and accusatory statements. The few posts (less than 5%) that got snarky toward her were addressed very quickly.

    There were far more considerate posts in this thread, including some that really tried to connect with #8. They might not have been as dramatic as the negative ones, but I think they are a better representation of the thread and the membership overall.
    Last edit by rn/writer on Sep 18, '07
  8. by   TazziRN
    Thank you, Miranda!!!! You said it way better than I could!
  9. by   BrnEyedGirl
    As usual Miranda,..very well stated

    I think that we all do need to remember that online one can "be" anything or anyone they choose to be. We have all seen the posts by someone who states they are an "experienced nurse" and thought "there is no way that person is a nurse". I remember someone talking about med errors, who said that she once gave 100 milligrams of Fentanyl to a pt rather than the intented 100 micrograms,.because she couldn't read the doctors handwriting,...you will never convince me that really happened!! I think that is the bases for some of the frustration many feel when someone stands so strongly and rigidly to a point that often doesn't make any rational sense to those of us who have been in this profession for many years. I think that this is a great site to share ideas, learn from each other, see things from a different perspective and to vent. We should all be open minded and often agree to disagree,..I have to admit that by repeatedly stating that those who disagreed with her were lazy, and unethical, she set herself up for what she got. Just my $ .02,...I love this site and won't let differences in oppinion keep me from logging on!!!!
  10. by   CRNI-ICU20
    Thank you to those who pointed out the very difference between expressing an opinion and those who used names, however they are meant, demeaning comments that included a person's brain formation, and demeaning one's background, ie education.
    I wasn't yelling, Tazzi....I was using caps to emphasize, or outline what I am referring to to draw your attention to it...I am sorry if you took that to mean that I was yelling....
    As for the moderator defending a bunch of people who used name calling: Wrong! the moderator and others stated that since she was supposedly the one who "drew first blood" so to speak, that somehow she deserved the personal attack. May I remind you that since her audience was almost all seasoned nurses, that more is required of them in the areas of restraint and listening skills? We are not wolves after all, whereby the alpha gets to bite down on the underling while the others watch.....
    This is the thinking that has GOT to change. In your response, Miranda,
    you stated "here's what the #8 poster said, yadda yadda yadda...was harsh and cruel??"
    Yes...she said that in her opinion, to pacify and blow off a patient's needs with therapeutic lying was in her opinion, lazy and taking the easy way out. NOW, she didn't call ANYONE there names, did not demean their educational background, demand that they cough up their experience in geriatrics, psychiatry, or any other "tree", she stated her opinion.....and the response, by the seasoned nurses was to refer to her as a TROLL, someone who's patients would be fearful of her, and one who stated she was a brain anomaly....
    Now,who is being harsh and cruel here???
    It should not matter if she says the sky is ORANGE....if this is her opinion, what right do the other posters have in calling her a troll, a brain anomaly, or lacking in education or experience?
    On this site, people are frequently stating that Doctors are rude, and that they feel "put down" by them. I have read where nurses who have years of education, are suddenly reduced to feeling like a pile of mush because another has slapped them verbally across the face.....
    This thread, albeit a year old, was no different.
    Now, I see some who would excuse the bad behaviour of these "seasoned" nurses as just responding to a person's thread?
    Since when is it okay to call a person a troll, (whatever your dictionary definition), refer to them as a brain anomaly? or make statements that imply her patients must be fearful?
    Are you actually saying that this poster deserved to be treated this way?
    If you look at some of the posters here, they re-inforce the opinion that 1) they want to be able to express what they have to say, without fear of retribution.

    2) they also expressed that much of what they would like to say at work, they can say here, because that spirit of retribution is so prominent in the work place....(exactly my point!)
    3)They also made comments that opinion should not include name calling, or demeaning put downs....

    I am not sure you, Miranda, and Tazzi, are understanding the difference between expressing an opinion, and attacking a person, because you both seem to be defending an action by some that was clearly a personal attack.....there was no opinion of an idea attached to that at all; and, in fact, if I am wrong here, then the thread would not have needed "re-direction" multiple times, if the free-flow of ideas was appropriate and professional, eh?
    To feed on a new nurse this way is just exactly why many do not remain in the profession, or never go there in the first place.
    The carnivore thinking must stop! People who do this kind of thing should be confronted. They hide behind hypocritical actions and words, backstabbing as they go, and smile that they have anonymity.....and most then waltz off to their churches and bedsides singing the Lord's praises. It's the worst kind of lie, to one's self; believing you are something more special, more educated, more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent, than the next person.
    What I hear for excuses is:
    "well, she said inflammatory words FIRST"!! this isn't a kindergarten sandbox, people....this is supposed to be a website that embodies a group of so-called professionals! do you not understand how lame this looks???
    "it was an old thread".....uh huh....and it IS old....but the same stuff keeps happnening over and over in nursing, where one person expresses an opinion and the pride comes in to devour them for having it.....

    If we are going to call ourselves "seasoned" nurses, then we jolly well better grow up and act like it. Name calling is for bullies. Demeaning comments about one's education or in-experience is also for bullies.
    Please, moderators, call a spade a spade.....stop soft soaping the issue here and glossing it over.
    Yes, she probably could have approached this a little less aggressively; but WE ARE THE SEASONED ONES....aren't we supposed to have the wisdom to impart respect, invoke free-expression of opinion, and encourage young nurses?
    What happened on that thread in particular was nothing more than pack mentality.....it makes me want to be a vegetarian! ugh.
    There are even some seasoned nurses who have been afraid to speak their minds because some would bite them or slap them verbally. What a shame that we have allowed a few to bully the rest of us into believing that ONLY THEY can have an opinion.
    To deny that this example before you isn't bullying is about the most blinded eye I have ever encountered. What will it take before any one of you takes a personal accountability enough to say NO to this kind of behaviour? Until it happens to you, or someone you care about, it seems to not be even believed. It is, instead, excused. crni
  11. by   Tweety
    Quote from CRNI-ICU20
    "it was an old thread".....uh huh....and it IS old....but the same stuff keeps happnening over and over in nursing, where one person expresses an opinion and the pride comes in to devour them for having it.....
    I think your exaggerating, which is why you have to bring up such an old thread. Of course, if you look hard enough you'll find a new one for sure.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does.

    But what you call "devouring", "harsh" and "cruel" the mods might not see it that way and let it go. Sometimes we just have to allow people to express themselves, as you personally are doing in this ultra-critical angry post. If we deleted every brazen, short, irritable post, we'd be here all day and there would be far fewer posts.

    You can't please 100% of the membership 100% of the time.

    There was a thread recently where I asked the posters to not jump on the bandwagon and keep telling her over and over she was wrong. People agreed and stopped. Did they "devour" the op of that thread. We didn't think so, no TOS violations occurred, most were respectful. 99.999% of people who disagree with a poster don't devour them, they state their case maturely.

    In the ADN vs. BSN debate, many people were getting on someone who said diploma nurses shouldn't call themselves a "nurse". Did they "devour" her? Not really, but I tried real hard to allow this person to be respected for their unpopular stance and challenge the membership to be respectful.

    If you find current posts of people devouring someone, please report. Thanks.

    I think that it is good to be reminded to post with thoughtful consideration for the one we are posting to, even if we completely disagree and find their actions/post/question/position offensive to us.
    Last edit by Tweety on Sep 18, '07
  12. by   CRNI-ICU20
    You think calling someone a troll is exaggerating?
    Yes, this is an OLD thread, but the mentality of some of those same seasoned nurses still remains....because at the point of injury to the new nurse, no one was really held accountable, Tweety....
    That's what I am trying to say here....
    It isn't an exaggeration...
    To that person who was attacked, it might as well have happened yesterday.....the wounds still linger long after the point of injury, because NO ONE apologized.....and they should have....
    I am not "having to bring up such an old thread"....as you say, in order to prove my point....because the mal-adaptive thinking is still there, as evidenced by many of the responses here....
    Many expressed that they are not comfortable expressing themselves openly at work because they fear retribution....well DUH!
    And many others expressed that they have been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour....
    And further, it is so common for one person to point out that the behaviour is wrong, call it what it truly is, and then have another come along and dismiss it as "just a misunderstanding" or "the first poster was harsh and cruel first!!"
    While you can site instances since that time, in your experience, where people have tempered themselves and refrained from slinging nasty comments and words around, I have encountered some threads where people have openly done the opposite, and have backstabbed within the thread as if the one being stabbed was not able to read or see their words....(like talking behind their back)....it was bizzare! to say the least....and very telling....
    I realize that some believe passionately about their work, and that they post here as if their very lives depended on it, but give me a break here....calling someone a troll is just plain wrong, and it isn't an exaggeration....whether it happened a year ago, or whether it happened yesterday....it's wrong....crni
  13. by   Tweety
    Quote from CRNI-ICU20
    You think calling someone a troll is exaggerating?
    Yes, this is an OLD thread, but the mentality of some of those same seasoned nurses still remains....because at the point of injury to the new nurse, no one was really held accountable, Tweety....
    That's what I am trying to say here....
    It isn't an exaggeration...
    To that person who was attacked, it might as well have happened yesterday.....the wounds still linger long after the point of injury, because NO ONE apologized.....and they should have....
    I am not "having to bring up such an old thread"....as you say, in order to prove my point....because the mal-adaptive thinking is still there, as evidenced by many of the responses here....
    Many expressed that they are not comfortable expressing themselves openly at work because they fear retribution....well DUH!
    And many others expressed that they have been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour....
    And further, it is so common for one person to point out that the behaviour is wrong, call it what it truly is, and then have another come along and dismiss it as "just a misunderstanding" or "the first poster was harsh and cruel first!!"
    While you can site instances since that time, in your experience, where people have tempered themselves and refrained from slinging nasty comments and words around, I have encountered some threads where people have openly done the opposite, and have backstabbed within the thread as if the one being stabbed was not able to read or see their words....(like talking behind their back)....it was bizzare! to say the least....and very telling....
    I realize that some believe passionately about their work, and that they post here as if their very lives depended on it, but give me a break here....calling someone a troll is just plain wrong, and it isn't an exaggeration....whether it happened a year ago, or whether it happened yesterday....it's wrong....crni

    No, I didn't mean to condone such behavior. I find much to agree with in your post.

    I just don't think it's happening over and over in our forums. Perhaps we're reading different threads (there are several forums I do not go to, LTC being one of them), or looking at threads with a different eye (which is likely the case). Maybe I have rose colored glasses and am not calling a spade a spade. I'm willing to look at that.

    But for now, I'd still like to have faith that 95% percent of the membership here are good people and don't go around devouring and bullying one another.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it happens for sure.

    As was mentioned, it does happen that someone calls another a troll, or worse and we miss it.

    I'm just not sure we're going to moderate to your satisfaction and I'm sure what else to say about that. But I'm trying to open my mind. Again, I can say we'll try to get better and ask the membership to report TOS violations and bullying ASAP.
    Last edit by Tweety on Sep 18, '07

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