What we say and what we do....

[CRNI-ICU20]

In the last couple of days/weeks, I have been noticing some things on this website that troubles me.

On more than just a few occasions, I have read whole threads, where there is a "discussion", or difference of opinion being expressed.

I notice in some of those threads that more times than not, when one person doesn't agree with the "crowd", the "crowd" then turns on the "outsider" or "non-agreeing one", and then comes in with personal attacks.....

Comments that state things like: "I bet her patients are fearful"....or "brain anonmalies" or implying that only the "seasoned ones" have ultimate knowledge. There doesn't seem to be any free exchange of ideas from that point on. The one being attacked is hounded with questions about whether or not they have the "credentials" to back up their opinion, etc.

I wonder about this. I wonder why nurses who talk about NOT EATING THEIR YOUNG, do so OPENLY on a public forum, all in the name of "education", and thn post on another thread about how wrong it is to eat their own young!

I wonder why moderators don't put some sort of "kabosh" on people who repeatedly and personally attack people....not the IDEA, but the PERSON.....there is a distinct difference, but just like in most bullying situations, the onlookers tend to look the other way.....and I wonder why, when you have threads about lateral violence, and nurses bullying others, you allow that to happen here right under your eyeglasses, with nary a finger wag.

It's one thing to express an opinion, and then step back when someone blasts that opinion with one of their own....

It's quite another to make comments about a nurse's mental health, their brain capacity, labeling them as arrogant and then topping it off with " i don't think she has any experience.

if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts. " and calling this poster a "troll??"

I don't care how passionate you are about some particular area of your work, by calling a fellow nurse a troll or brain damaged or dismissing her comments as "less than" because you don't agree with them, only diminishes YOU.

I find it even more IRONIC that the many who attacked her were standing on their soapboxes squawking loudly about HOW TO COMMUNICATE WITH DISORENTED AND DEMENTED PATIENTS....

If you have to resort to calling a fellow nurse a troll? what kind of communicator ARE YOU??

I am ashamed to have read that thread....and even more ashamed to realize that it was participated in by so-called "seasoned" nurses....

In my opinion, you should be able to conduct yourselves better....you want to be seen as professionals, and yet, here you are, calling another in your profession a troll, because she sees something differently....

What do you suppose she took from this communication exchange???

I don't think she even heard your point....she was still reeling from the frontal verbal punches you threw at her....

You can kick me off the forum for this if you want. Or, you can let this be an opportunity for some here to offer an apology for getting out of line....jmho. crni

[leslie :-D]

So to pick and sift through threads in this nice and cordial place and whip negligible incidents up...? I think it's making a mountain out of a molehill.

especially where the questionable thread is a yr old.

is that the most recent incident the op could find?

if so, i think that's pretty, darned good.

more importantly, i've been a member for 7 yrs now.

from my heart, i find this bb to be one of the most supportive bridges i've yet to encounter.

it never ceases to amaze me, the impassioned, intelligent personalities i've read and communicated with.

i think that's why this particular bb is so addictive for so many.

brian and his staff, command and show respect, by encouraging a liberated freedom to exchange our thoughts.

the tos of service are crystal clear.

however, some posts are 10 shades of grey.

some posts, are seemingly angry but the words don't quite 'cross the line'.

almost, but it's negligible.

overall, i would say 98% of the debates, remain at the least, civil, and at best, highly productive.

w/o a doubt, brian runs a tight ship.

and i for one, am thrilled to be a member of the crew.

now, i think i'll read this thread everyone is referring to.:)

leslie

[CaLLaCoDe, BSN, RN]

[mouse]

more importantly, i've been a member for 7 yrs now.

from my heart, i find this bb to be one of the most supportive bridges i've yet to encounter.

it never ceases to amaze me, the impassioned, intelligent personalities i've read and communicated with.

i think that's why this particular bb is so addictive for so many.

brian and his staff, command and show respect, by encouraging a liberated freedom to exchange our thoughts.

the tos of service are crystal clear.

however, some posts are 10 shades of grey.

some posts, are seemingly angry but the words don't quite 'cross the line'.

almost, but it's negligible.

overall, i would say 98% of the debates, remain at the least, civil, and at best, highly productive.

w/o a doubt, brian runs a tight ship.

and i for one, am thrilled to be a member of the crew.

now, i think i'll read this thread everyone is referring to.:)

leslie

[/mouse]DITTO leslie earle...you have been reading my mail. I could not have expressed my contentment with this sight and its people any better than you. From the bottom of my web space heart, thank you LESLIE!!!

PS What better resource do I have than to gather understanding from everyone every time I visit this forum; really, I can't but help to introduce others to this site.

[kanzi monkey]

"Since when is it okay to call a person a troll, (whatever your dictionary definition)"

Sorry to harp on this, but I think you are missing the point about the "troll-calling"--people use the phrase "Internet Troll" to describe a person who is specifically trying to antagonize a group--that is, say things BECAUSE they are controversial for the sole purpose of upsetting people. "Internet Trolls" are not expressing true feelings or opinions. There are times when trolling is obvious--I've seen it a couple times on allnurses, but not much.

Now, that said, it is certainly NOT nice to call someone an internet troll if they aren't positive that the person IS actually trolling. I think in the case of that thread, #8 COULD have been trolling, but it definitely wasn't a cut and dry case. If someone IS suspected of trolling, it's more appropriate to ignore them than it is to antagonize them as that's what they're going for.

I think the reason people called this person a troll is because they actually believed that #8 was intentionally trying to rile them up just to get a reaction, which is really poor online etiquette. The following comments--about the brain anomaly and "being afraid for her patients" I sort of interpreted as being said by people who also felt that #8 was trolling.

If someone is being a troll, then people caught in the cross-fire are the victims. But again, they are best ignored. The case with #8 was definitely ambiguous--but at the point that people started name calling she had definitely made rude comments and insinuations that other nurses were "lazy" and not doing a good job. I think the trolling question comes about when you look at what someone is saying and realize that it is undeniably something that is intended to hurt or offend another. There are things that #8 said that she could not have possibly posted without realizing that people were going to feel hurt or accused--not just because she was expressing another opinion, but because her tone and her words were directly confrontational.

So, no, I don't think calling someone a troll is an effective way of dealing with that situation--if someone is, without question, a troll, the conversation should stop, and the thread discontinued. At the same time, I don't think that the people who DID call #8 names were doing it maliciously--I think they, unfortunately, had a difficult time controlling their emotions after reading the posts posted by #8, some of which are objectively offensive.

Also, as far as attitudes on this board go, I have found that this forum provides a very civil dialogue between nurses with different kinds and levels of experience. We don't always agree, but I've definitely found this to be an extremely diplomatic group. Threads like the inflammatory one that you posted as an example, where one nurse is ostracized and people throw out names are the exception.

You mentioned that you have seen a lot of this in the last few weeks--which threads are you talking about?

-Kan

[squeakykitty]

CRNI- I have to quote you from another thread-

"She's an adult, with a big communication problem and an even bigger personality problem....maybe she can find a job where she doesn't have to deal with people and can read the paper all day....

Like maybe the dog pound, or a dispatcher's office for a Maytag repairman....or phone sex hot line in the middle of the Nevada desert...

There is a certain criteria when it comes to working with the sick and elderly.....she clearly showed her employer and co-workers that she wasn't able to meet that criteria....."

crni >>>>>>>>>It seems that you don't practice what you are preaching here on a consistent basis....My frustration with the thread in question was the inability of the person to which you are referring to open her mind.Those of us who work with the Alzheimer's population have to deal with the resultant chaos caused by people like her.They refuse to LEARN.I am learning and growing every single day-I watch and learn from everyone I come into contact with- both younger and more experienced nurses.I don't ignore someone because they may have less education them I do or less experience because they may have a valid point.I don't start picking apart someone's grammar or spelling to deflect the attention from the fact that I really don't know what I'm talking about. The vast experience of the posters on that thread is overwhelmingly against that poster's view point.She was like a 4 yr old holding her fingers in her ears and chanting " I can't hear you,I can't hear you" Calling someone a "troll" is internet speak for someone who enjoys baiting the crowd.No worse then telling a fellow nurse she should work in a dog pound ...This person clearly showed she is not capable of meeting the criteria required to work with the demented,IMHO---she should work on a phone sex line,right?

I saw the other thread. The nurse she was talking about verbally abused elderly patients for incontinence and needing the commode.

[cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN]

I saw the other thread. The nurse she was talking about verbally abused elderly patients for incontinence and needing the commode.

But the people who responded on the other thread felt just as passionate about the Dementia/psych issue too.

You can't throw stones...

[nuangel1, BSN, RN]

crni i agree name calling should not happen .but we as group of adults can have differing opinions.and yes since i have joined over 1 yr ago i have seen a few threads get rather testy .but in general i find this board very supportive and very much enjoy coming here.i have always felt free to give my opinion.we are as a group consistently reminded to debate the issue not eachother .ie try to be respectful of eaches opinion even if we disagree.i did not see that thread on dementia till yest.i read it thru completely .the op was very argumentative and while she had no experience with these types of pts she repeatedly stated that the exp nurses were lazy and lying .she should not have been so accusatory and given such attitude .experienced nurses repeatedly gave her ex where trying to reorient the pt fails and is more hazardous to the pt then helpful.yes we all have books that say we need to reorient pts.i don't lie to my pts however in over 20 yrs of my exp as well as having a elderly mother who lives with me and has dementia, most times trying to reorient them is too painful for the pt and other options should be used .other then being called a troll the op asked for it .

[smk1, LPN]

Specifically, for stevielynn:

Page 7, 8, 11,19,21,

It wasn't until the 22 page or so that there was ANY strong intervention by the moderator....which I find wrong...

because, in my opinion, the minute someone refers to another nurse point blank as a TROLL?? or brain damaged (anomaly) or says her patients should be fearful?? In my opinion those who did so should have been removed, or at least reprimanded...this went on for several pages before anyone said a word!!

NOT OKAY!!

This is a new nurse, PEOPLE!!

I guess some REALLY DO EAT THEIR OWN YOUNG...while some just look on and ignore...

it's sickening.

While I can't completely agree with you about the tone of that whole thread, I do have to agree that many people on this board need to stop with the "i hope you are never my nurse" bit. It is extremely insulting and IS a direct personal attack. This particular theme is littered throughout posts all over the board in many heated debate themed topics from the young and old. I myself may even have done it a time or two that I can't recall, but will never do it again, because I can now see just how rude it is as I quickly approach the actual status of "nurse". We all have strong opinions and everyone will approach their jobs from a different background, but we can engage in debate without calling another persons professional practice into question without true cause to do so.

[It's Alisa]

I've been sporadically reading allnurses for a few months now, and posting for much less then that, but I've found that a great majority of posts, and responses are posts that are supportive, and knowledgable. Think back to how many posts you've seen with the title "passed nclex" and how many nurses rushed to congratulate the passer? how many times have you vented on this site, and have had nurses know exactly how you feel, and have helped you get over the hump? How many randomn nursing questions have been answered here that you couldn't find elsewhere? A LOT, A LOT, and A LOT. I think if people weren't so quick to label, and look for a quarell, all these nurses wouldn't be pushed to the point to use such strong language to get their point across.

[CRNI-ICU20]

To KTWLPN: If you want to compare apples and oranges, well, okay...

In the instance YOU quoted me speaking, and in it's context, we were talking on that thread about a nurse who was abusing patients and co-workers.....https://allnurses.com/forums/f8/coworker-fired-yesterday-45938-6.html

This thread was ALSO an old one...2003? I believe....and in the context of what was written about this person who called her patients babies who made "messes" when they were not attended to in need of bathrooming, etc, her behaviour towards her co-workers and patients seemed incorrigible. Now, if you want to compare what I said about this person from a thread four years ago, who mistreated and abused her patients to a situation on this forum, as being the same thing, then I am amazed. I don't believe a person, such as described in that thread should EVER be around vulnerable patients, and I stand by that. If you want to describe what I said as being the same as three distinct statements made to a brand new nurse as personal attack, by people who currently still post on this forum as the same thing, then I can only conclude that you fail to see the obvious difference....

IN the first instance, the thread you quoted me from, the elder abuser was asking for a personal reference from the OP.....and while my sarcasm may have not been the kindest toward her, I don't see where what I said could any way be compared to calling a fellow nurse a troll, (no matter what your definition....and no, she wasn't trolling as per the internet definition...she quit responding because she was pretty devastated by what people were saying...and who wouldn't be??) and calling her a "brain anomaly"....and stating her patients must be fearful of her.....

I don't think any of what you quoted is a fair comparison at all...

Now...if I had called that fired abusive nurse a troll, or a brain damaged person...???? possibly you might have a stronger stance...but that's not the situation....and I would appreciate it if you would have given background to my statement if you are going to lift it from another thread within the context of it's writing.

As for "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" and "making mountains out of molehills"....

The AACN apparently doesn't think this kind of thinking, attitude, speech, or action against one another is a mole hill. They, in fact, are addressing the very long last needed discussion and resolution of nurses who engage this way. In my opinion, it's long overdue, and to poo-poo incidents like this as just insignificant only proves my point; that being that often we do look the other way when a feeding frenzy occurs.....in some ways, it is a learned behaviour from days on the playground when someone was bullying another, an many stood by and did nothing....this doesn't excuse it....and should never take the place of doing something about it when it is noticed or seen....

What bothers me is that those who did engage in this situation at that time, did not stop themselves, or one another, nor did the actual offenders apologize to the new nurse....instead, it was the MODERATOR who had to reign them in....that is troubling to me....because those same people still post as if it never happened, and as if they have no ownership of the harm they perpetuated.

As seasoned nurses, we need to put a stop to this behaviour before it one day comes back on us!

While I do concede that for the most part, here, there seems to be a pretty good comraderie, there are times when I do/have seen some pretty insulting words between people....

I also understand that moderators try their best to give people a little slack, and understand that many of us are in need of a place to 'unload' a little....but I think the line we shouldn't ever cross is to dump that load on a new nurse....despite what she may or may not be perceived as....

While I stated before that as seasoned nurses, or nurses who have had alot of experience in a given field, it is often frustrating for us to listen, watch, or tolerate a new nurse's viewpoints if they don't "jive" with our own....we become sometimes outright angry that they "don't do things the way we see them, do them, or experience them"....In essence, we like controlling the situation, as it were....and that's on us! I don't think we are EVER going to convince new nurses that we are worth a hoot, if we abuse them along the way! It's analagous to hitting someone over the head with a violin in order to prove to them that music is beautiful!

If a new nurse comes to you and says something, what's the harm in letting him/her state what they have to say, and then either leave your own ego out of it, OR state what you have to say without dragging personal attack into it? Isn't that the definition of good conversation?

Simple minds talk about others behind their backs.....great minds discuss ideas....

Thank you NURSEMIKE for the face licking....it helps from time to time to have that as a back up when I am wearing newly worn egg....ahem... :)

I appreciate, for the most part, the dialogue and discussions here....I don't like seeing people tear at one another, however....and when it happens, and no one says, "hey, wait a min. here", I don't mind sayin'

something....

I also don't like words that were used amongst those that posted minimized and catagorized into:

"well she deserved what she got, because she was rude, or she was calling the other nurses lazy".

If you take that step, then it means that you allow certain people to be bullied, and certain people to continue bullying....there isn't a middle ground here....

Namecalling is out...

Calling a person's professional stance into question, or making statements like, "your patients must be fearful" is out....

If you don't understand for sure what the person is saying, rather than assume wrongly, or judge wrongly, why not just say, "could you please expand on what you are saying?"

Nine times out of ten, you will find that the communication was slightly awry, and has nothing to do with them being a troll, as was the perception, nor does it have anything to do with their personhood...

I believe we should do our best to approach each other with respect and compassion, no matter how wrong we may think the other person is.

Here is some helpful reading on the subject from the AACN Journal....

thanks alot for helping me address something that I have felt for a long time....I know some of you have felt this as well...

http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/3/10

Thank you to those who enlightened me here.

[cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN]

she quit responding because she was pretty devastated by what people were saying...and who wouldn't be??).

Actually, she's still posting on here. Last post was a few months ago. She probably left that thread because she was done with it. Although now it's brought back to life again...

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

CCRNI, I hope you're feeling better for venting your concerns about the members of this board who are insulting to each other and profession.

We can only now try to do better, be the example, and call people on their bad behavior by reporting it if there's a TOS violation (or if you think there is one) and asking the insulting one to clarify. Let them in a mature fashion know they how they are coming across and asking them if they mean to come across that way.

I'm still not willing to concede that it's a huge and common problem given the 1000's of posts here a day. But as mature professionals, I think we can deal with it when it crops up.

Rather than sit on the sidelines and get steamed, lets be proactive and try to improve where we can improve.

Perhaps we're at that moment where we can continue to belabor about how others behave and do something productive and positive.

First and foremost being the example of mature professional behavior ourselves.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Although now it's brought back to life again...

It is? By all means, let me close it. Thanks for the heads up.