What we say and what we do....

Nurses General Nursing

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In the last couple of days/weeks, I have been noticing some things on this website that troubles me.

On more than just a few occasions, I have read whole threads, where there is a "discussion", or difference of opinion being expressed.

I notice in some of those threads that more times than not, when one person doesn't agree with the "crowd", the "crowd" then turns on the "outsider" or "non-agreeing one", and then comes in with personal attacks.....

Comments that state things like: "I bet her patients are fearful"....or "brain anonmalies" or implying that only the "seasoned ones" have ultimate knowledge. There doesn't seem to be any free exchange of ideas from that point on. The one being attacked is hounded with questions about whether or not they have the "credentials" to back up their opinion, etc.

I wonder about this. I wonder why nurses who talk about NOT EATING THEIR YOUNG, do so OPENLY on a public forum, all in the name of "education", and thn post on another thread about how wrong it is to eat their own young!

I wonder why moderators don't put some sort of "kabosh" on people who repeatedly and personally attack people....not the IDEA, but the PERSON.....there is a distinct difference, but just like in most bullying situations, the onlookers tend to look the other way.....and I wonder why, when you have threads about lateral violence, and nurses bullying others, you allow that to happen here right under your eyeglasses, with nary a finger wag.

It's one thing to express an opinion, and then step back when someone blasts that opinion with one of their own....

It's quite another to make comments about a nurse's mental health, their brain capacity, labeling them as arrogant and then topping it off with " i don't think she has any experience.

if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts. " and calling this poster a "troll??"

I don't care how passionate you are about some particular area of your work, by calling a fellow nurse a troll or brain damaged or dismissing her comments as "less than" because you don't agree with them, only diminishes YOU.

I find it even more IRONIC that the many who attacked her were standing on their soapboxes squawking loudly about HOW TO COMMUNICATE WITH DISORENTED AND DEMENTED PATIENTS....

If you have to resort to calling a fellow nurse a troll? what kind of communicator ARE YOU??

I am ashamed to have read that thread....and even more ashamed to realize that it was participated in by so-called "seasoned" nurses....

In my opinion, you should be able to conduct yourselves better....you want to be seen as professionals, and yet, here you are, calling another in your profession a troll, because she sees something differently....

What do you suppose she took from this communication exchange???

I don't think she even heard your point....she was still reeling from the frontal verbal punches you threw at her....

You can kick me off the forum for this if you want. Or, you can let this be an opportunity for some here to offer an apology for getting out of line....jmho. crni

Specializes in Cardiac.

Oh yes, with posts today in fact...

NOOOOOOOOOOOO....don't close that thread Tweaty...I'm STILL reading! lol...and learning! :)

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO....don't close that thread Tweaty...I'm STILL reading! lol...and learning! :)

Well if you can't even spell my name right how can I take you seriously. :lol2:

It's closed probably only for a short time because we're not sticking to the issue the thread was intended to have.

Specializes in Cardiac.

You can still read it, just not reply to it.

That girl is now the subject of a whole new thread. And she is probably getting email notification of that old thread.

So while the original point of this thread was to talk about how someone is treated, I'm sure it doesn't feel good to get a whole new thread started about a old thread that you wanted to forget...

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
I saw the other thread. The nurse she was talking about verbally abused elderly patients for incontinence and needing the commode.

and in all of the Alzheimer's type units I have ever worked on attempting to re-orient a resident is considered VERBAL ABUSE also.. It really is the same thing........ This is NOT comparing apples to oranges..Any staff members I have worked with that seemed to delight in attempting to re-orient these residents often crossed the line into other abuse and I believe that type of person does not belong anywhere near that type of vulnerable patient.You fail to see the obvious difference here.It's really funny to me that you seem so hooked on the "troll" thing but telling a nurse to go work on a phone sex line is OK? YOU were joking and the other poster was not? How would you know if she was being sarcastic just as you claim to have been? As for the other poster in the other thread-she seems very capable of taking care of herself -she has done so on other threads. I know all about nurses eating their young and bullies-but the victim sometimes has to take responsibilty for their own actions.You can't just roll over-you have to speak up for yourself in an adult and professional manner.And own your mistakes,admit you may be wrong...Often the brave new nurses start off with "I know it all" attitudes and when they run into trouble they call it "eating the young" when it really was a wake up call...

Specializes in ICU;CCU;Telemetry;L&D;Hospice;ER/Trauma;.

ktwlpn....I did not claim to be "joking" as you stated....

I stated that it was sarcasm...If you are somehow trying to minimize what I am saying here, or trying to show me that I am somehow a hypocrite, fine...I said a sarcastic remark about someone who was fired four years ago and I am sorry...I guess in my passionate moment, I should have not said those things about someone another poster brought to the forum because it was a nurse who behaved badly toward her patients and co-workers....maybe you are right, maybe we should all temper our tongues when it comes to nurses in general....

However, my post was specifically dealing with seasoned nurses who have treated some on this forum with great disregard and have shown no remorse or empathy toward this specific person....despite multiple attempts by moderators to reign in their comments....

instead, I have "listened" to upteen reasons why this specific person deserved??? no less, the verbal barrage.

I don't think saying " " i don't think she has any experience.

if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts. " as was stated by one of the regular posters here on this forum was necessary, do you?

WAS THAT SARCASM, OR WAS IT A WAKE UP CALL??? WAS IT OWNING A MISTAKE?? WAS IT ADMISSION OF WRONGDOING??

I am curious what you think about this...

And thank you for pointing out to me my wrongdoing....I guess after re-reading my sarcasm, it wasn't a nice thing to say....

But, I sense from your post that you don't think this incident even had merit as a new post by me...I sense that there is a bit of edginess in your tone toward new nurses, as evidenced by "Often the brave new nurses start off with 'I know it all' attitudes and when they run into trouble they call it "eating the young" when it really was a wake up call...".....

As you wrote this line, I wondered, what sort of trouble would a brave new nurse be running into, and just how, exactly would a nurse such as yourself address that 'trouble' with the brave new nurse....and would you support her/him and gently admonish in that adult and professional manner, owning your own mistakes, or ....

would you let the hammer fall on her/him....and chalk it up to their "wake up call?"

To KTWLPN: If you want to compare apples and oranges, well, okay...

In the instance YOU quoted me speaking, and in it's context, we were talking on that thread about a nurse who was abusing patients and co-workers.....https://allnurses.com/forums/f8/coworker-fired-yesterday-45938-6.html

This thread was ALSO an old one...2003? I believe....and in the context of what was written about this person who called her patients babies who made "messes" when they were not attended to in need of bathrooming, etc, her behaviour towards her co-workers and patients seemed incorrigible. Now, if you want to compare what I said about this person from a thread four years ago, who mistreated and abused her patients to a situation on this forum, as being the same thing, then I am amazed. I don't believe a person, such as described in that thread should EVER be around vulnerable patients, and I stand by that. If you want to describe what I said as being the same as three distinct statements made to a brand new nurse as personal attack, by people who currently still post on this forum as the same thing, then I can only conclude that you fail to see the obvious difference....

IN the first instance, the thread you quoted me from, the elder abuser was asking for a personal reference from the OP.....and while my sarcasm may have not been the kindest toward her, I don't see where what I said could any way be compared to calling a fellow nurse a troll, (no matter what your definition....and no, she wasn't trolling as per the internet definition...she quit responding because she was pretty devastated by what people were saying...and who wouldn't be??) and calling her a "brain anomaly"....and stating her patients must be fearful of her.....

I don't think any of what you quoted is a fair comparison at all...

Now...if I had called that fired abusive nurse a troll, or a brain damaged person...???? possibly you might have a stronger stance...but that's not the situation....and I would appreciate it if you would have given background to my statement if you are going to lift it from another thread within the context of it's writing.

As for "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" and "making mountains out of molehills"....

The AACN apparently doesn't think this kind of thinking, attitude, speech, or action against one another is a mole hill. They, in fact, are addressing the very long last needed discussion and resolution of nurses who engage this way. In my opinion, it's long overdue, and to poo-poo incidents like this as just insignificant only proves my point; that being that often we do look the other way when a feeding frenzy occurs.....in some ways, it is a learned behaviour from days on the playground when someone was bullying another, an many stood by and did nothing....this doesn't excuse it....and should never take the place of doing something about it when it is noticed or seen....

What bothers me is that those who did engage in this situation at that time, did not stop themselves, or one another, nor did the actual offenders apologize to the new nurse....instead, it was the MODERATOR who had to reign them in....that is troubling to me....because those same people still post as if it never happened, and as if they have no ownership of the harm they perpetuated.

As seasoned nurses, we need to put a stop to this behaviour before it one day comes back on us!

While I do concede that for the most part, here, there seems to be a pretty good comraderie, there are times when I do/have seen some pretty insulting words between people....

I also understand that moderators try their best to give people a little slack, and understand that many of us are in need of a place to 'unload' a little....but I think the line we shouldn't ever cross is to dump that load on a new nurse....despite what she may or may not be perceived as....

While I stated before that as seasoned nurses, or nurses who have had alot of experience in a given field, it is often frustrating for us to listen, watch, or tolerate a new nurse's viewpoints if they don't "jive" with our own....we become sometimes outright angry that they "don't do things the way we see them, do them, or experience them"....In essence, we like controlling the situation, as it were....and that's on us! I don't think we are EVER going to convince new nurses that we are worth a hoot, if we abuse them along the way! It's analagous to hitting someone over the head with a violin in order to prove to them that music is beautiful!

If a new nurse comes to you and says something, what's the harm in letting him/her state what they have to say, and then either leave your own ego out of it, OR state what you have to say without dragging personal attack into it? Isn't that the definition of good conversation?

Simple minds talk about others behind their backs.....great minds discuss ideas....

Thank you NURSEMIKE for the face licking....it helps from time to time to have that as a back up when I am wearing newly worn egg....ahem... :)

I appreciate, for the most part, the dialogue and discussions here....I don't like seeing people tear at one another, however....and when it happens, and no one says, "hey, wait a min. here", I don't mind sayin'

something....

I also don't like words that were used amongst those that posted minimized and catagorized into:

"well she deserved what she got, because she was rude, or she was calling the other nurses lazy".

If you take that step, then it means that you allow certain people to be bullied, and certain people to continue bullying....there isn't a middle ground here....

Namecalling is out...

Calling a person's professional stance into question, or making statements like, "your patients must be fearful" is out....

If you don't understand for sure what the person is saying, rather than assume wrongly, or judge wrongly, why not just say, "could you please expand on what you are saying?"

Nine times out of ten, you will find that the communication was slightly awry, and has nothing to do with them being a troll, as was the perception, nor does it have anything to do with their personhood...

I believe we should do our best to approach each other with respect and compassion, no matter how wrong we may think the other person is.

Here is some helpful reading on the subject from the AACN Journal....

thanks alot for helping me address something that I have felt for a long time....I know some of you have felt this as well...

http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/3/10

Thank you to those who enlightened me here.

I'd like to clarify some things. You have repeatedly said that #8 was called a troll and have used that as an example of bullying. The word troll was mentioned three times in that entire thread of some 24 pages.

One poster asked, "Is anyone else thinking troll?" meaning that the behavior in question brought to mind someone who was deliberately trying to get a rise out of people.

Immediately after that, someone said, "I'm guessing no troll, but if troll she be, what kind of person indulges in this kind of behavior?

There you have it. A legitimate question (as opposed to a declaration of certainty) based solidly on #8's unusual behavior. An expression of doubt that the troll label fits. And a conditional statement coupled with another legitimate question.

That's the sum total of the "bullying" that took place regarding the troll issue.

The brain anomaly remark was obviously made in jest, but in retrospect was probably not the best choice in the growing tension of the thread.

The comment someone made about feeling sorry for her frightened patients is not bullying. It is an expression of genuine concern for the fact that she didn't seem to grasp the emotional fall-out resulting from re-orienting dementia patients regardless of the effect it had on them.

You have chosen to focus on a small percentage of the posts in this thread and discard anything positive. You have also ignored the fact that #8 came in with guns blazing and was initially shown a lot of patience. As a result of this, you have spoken very sharply to the posters on the thread and used words like lateral violence, injury, wounding, attacking, etc. I read through that entire thread in the wee hours of the morning and saw a few snippy remarks that were addressed very quickly--but nothing even close to the wholesale diatribe and gang attack on a fragile new nurse that such words would suggest.

I don't think much more can be said at this point. You remain focused on the troll reference and see violence and attacking. Most of the moderators and others who have contributed to this thread see a couple of remarks that got snippy along with many more posts that offered information, civil disagreement, and even a couple of encouragements and apologies.

Compared to many virtual arenas, ours is pretty tame. Kind of like an Applebee's compared to a biker bar. It could be that the best thing to do is chalk this one up to off-kilter communication and move on.

If that strikes you as poo-pooing your concerns, I assure you it isn't meant that way. I just don't see an option--apart from endless (and probably pointless) hashing out--to reconcile two such different viewpoints.

I don't think saying " " i don't think she has any experience.

if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts. " as was stated by one of the regular posters here on this forum was necessary, do you?

as i said i would, i reread the thread in question.

i found the "troll" comment(s), the "brain anomaly" comment, but for the life of me, could not find any comments referring to op's pts being fearful of her.

and then....i found my post on that thread.

read it, guys.

it's post #62 on page 7.

and it states:

"i don't think she has any experience.

if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts."

crni, i am glad to see you heeded tweety's advice, and ask for clarification when assuming the worst.

when i said, "if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts.", i was referring to the emotional state of a highly vulnerable alzheimer's patient. if you understand anything about the sequelae of alzheimer's, when they reach mid to late stage of this disease, they ARE frightened and disoriented.

it can manifest itself as distrust, confusion, anxiety, fear and agitation.

NO WHERE DID I EVER STATE THIS PT POPULATION WAS FEARFUL OF HER.

and if that is what you thought, you should have asked me to expound on my comment!

i noticed in your opening post of this thread, you quoted me (w/o naming me specifically).

yet in subsequent posts, you have altered the contents of my quote, aeb:

post #7 of this thread: "because, in my opinion, the minute someone refers to another nurse point blank as a TROLL?? or brain damaged (anomaly) or says her patients should be fearful??"

post #9: "THE POINT IS THAT THE OTHER POSTERS REFERRED TO HER AS A TROLL, STATED THAT HER PATIENTS WERE FEARFUL (AS IF TO IMPLY THAT SHE IS SOMEHOW A NURSE ONE SHOULD FEAR) AND..."

post #10 - "and referring to her patients as being in fear of her???"

post #23: "...and the response, by the seasoned nurses was to refer to her as a TROLL, someone who's patients would be fearful of her, ..."

post #45: "she quit responding because she was pretty devastated by what people were saying...and who wouldn't be??"

re: #45, did you actually talk to this person? did she TELL you she was devastated? or is this another alteration of perception?

post #45: "...and stating her patients must be fearful of her."

all these excerpts are downright libelous.

you have insisted to thousands, that i actually stated these falsifications.

please believe me when i tell you, i am exercising tremendous restraint at this point.

so, when you take away the "troll" comments (which was not derogatory but rather, an observation stating that someone is trying to ruffle our feathers), and the comments that you yourself created, supposedly by me, then your concerns show minimal merit.

right now, my biggest concern is the distorted view you've imposed on something i never said.

i don't even know how to respond.

except that you have lost any remaining credibility with me.

leslie

Specializes in ICU;CCU;Telemetry;L&D;Hospice;ER/Trauma;.

Thank you Miranda, for your insight into those specifics I brought up...

yes...it does shed a different light....in some ways..

But, you have to remember, this was a new nurse...and while she may or may not have approached the "seasoned ones" as gingerly as maybe she could have....doesn't she still deserve to be heard without being raked like this?? What I hear coming across is this: "If you are a newbie, don't open your mouth....don't express an opinion....because if you do, you better know chapter and verse just what you are talking about, or we will eat you alive...."

It shouldn't matter if she's wrong....let her be wrong!! Let her be wrong at the top of her lungs....in due time, she will learn....you can't tell me that none of those same seasoned ones have never ever in their nursing career ever been wrong about something they drew an opinion on! Did anyone ever call them a troll (or imply they were troublemaking, or imply that they must be a brain anomaly??) Maybe the troll thing wasn't meant to demean, but to define an action...(I get that)....what is sad, is that I don't think the newbie got that....I think she felt very attacked and demeaned....and all because she wanted to express her opinion...however wrong it may or may not have been...

Communication is really complex sometimes...esp. here....when things can be interpreted so many ways....or mis-interpreted so many ways...

May the solution lies in being comfortable enough in your own skin, you don't feel the need to rip the skin off of someone else in order to prove your stance...

Maybe also the solution lies in being able to admit you don't know all there is to know....and being okay with that....

Maybe trying to remember how it was to walk a few steps in a new nurse's shoes would be helpful....

Maybe being more accepting of differences, and more willing to listen on BOTH SIDES would be helpful....

How will nursing ever survive if the biting continues?

Specializes in ICU;CCU;Telemetry;L&D;Hospice;ER/Trauma;.

Okay, Earle58.... I am sorry if I mis-interpreted what you wrote....but...

Why would you make a comment like that? Why would you say that"i don't think she has any experience and if she does,God pity her fearful and disoriented patients... ?

What was that supposed to mean??

Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but to some, and not just me, it sounded like you were saying that she was a bad nurse.....

what DID you mean?

Okay, Earle58.... I am sorry if I mis-interpreted what you wrote....but...

Why would you make a comment like that? Why would you say that"i don't think she has any experience and if she does,God pity her fearful and disoriented patients... ?

What was that supposed to mean??

Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but to some, and not just me, it sounded like you were saying that she was a bad nurse.....

what DID you mean?

"i don't think she has any experience" was in response to a question from another poster, who had wondered how much experience the op had in working in a dementia unit.

again, i responded with, "i don't think she has any experience".

and i explained why i said what i did about fearful, disoriented pts.

whether you choose to believe it, is not the point.

the point is you ASSUMED i meant it derogatorily and smeared its meaning to a whole new level of low.

unbelievable.

leslie

doesn't she still deserve to be heard without being raked like this??

Raked like what?

She was challenged on her level of experience because many of her assertions were just plain wrong. That doesn't mean a newbie can't express an opinion. It does mean that if you express opinions that don't stand up against the experience of many other nurses AND you use those opinions to call other nurses lazy, unethical, and the kind of people who are just looking for an easy way out of their work, you will probably be perceived as someone who is looking for a fight.

It shouldn't matter if she's wrong....let her be wrong!! Let her be wrong at the top of her lungs....in due time, she will learn....you can't tell me that none of those same seasoned ones have never ever in their nursing career ever been wrong about something they drew an opinion on!
This has to go both ways. Being allowed to be wrong isn't just for newbies. The corollary is that if you decide to voice an unpopular opinion, you do need to be realistic about the reaction you will invite and be prepared to back up what you say. That is the nature of debate--the lively interplay of opposing viewpoints. She got plenty of grace for being a newbie--for a time. But she rubbed people the wrong way by repeatedly insulting them. Novice nurse or not, that's just plain inconsiderate. And foolhardy for the fragile. It was her abrasive style and her accusations that got some posters riled. When someone is calling you lazy and unethical despite having zero background in the topic under discussion, it's kind of difficult to think of her as a tender fledgling nurse.

Maybe the troll thing wasn't meant to demean, but to define an action...(I get that)....what is sad, is that I don't think the newbie got that....I think she felt very attacked and demeaned....and all because she wanted to express her opinion...however wrong it may or may not have been...
It was more the way she said it than what she said. And the fact that she didn't seem to consider anything other possibility than that the nurses who were sharing years of wisdom were lazy and unethical.

Communication is really complex sometimes...esp. here....when things can be interpreted so many ways....or mis-interpreted so many ways...

May the solution lies in being comfortable enough in your own skin, you don't feel the need to rip the skin off of someone else in order to prove your stance...

How will nursing ever survive if the biting continues?
This whole impasse seems to come down to a couple of things.

The content of what #8 said wasn't soooo horrible. But the fact that she stated it in such a confrontational manner and really had nothing to back up her statements except negative remarks about other nurses didn't make for an auspicious beginning. There are dozens of threads on this board where younger nurses are given all kinds of encouragement and help in getting up to speed. This includes times when they come in with a controversial position. What is different is they don't usually start out with attitude, judging and demeaning the other posters.

The other area of disagreement seems to be one of proportion. In this post alone you used the words raking, ripping the skin off someone, and biting. These are extreme characterizations of what took place.

A few people got snippy. That happens. Many more were neutral or positive, even kind. You probably won't find a nicer bunch of folks on any bulletin board anywhere.

It does bother me a little that in all the talk of raking and ripping and biting and bullying, there has been no mention of any of the good things that went on in that thread, and there were plenty.

A fragile person does themselves no favors when they talk tough and make bold assertions that have no basis in experience. New kids on any block who arrive with their dukes up should not be surprised when others see that stance as confrontational and proceed to confront.

I'm sorry that this appears to have been a bad experience for #8. I think I can safely say that no one wanted that outcome. At the same time, let's not make more of this than it is. She got her feelings hurt after a handful of posters took exception to the way she expressed herself. Nobody ripped, raked, bit, bullied, or attacked. They snipped. And were asked not to.

Please, let's move on from here with the understanding that, as you so correctly pointed out, virtual communication is a challenge and there can be problems between the kindest of people with the best of intentions. It happens.

Thank you for caring about a fellow nurse. I do hope that something good can come out of this discussion.

I really think it's time to close this chapter and turn our attention to other things.

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