'Borderline' students?

mattsmom81 · Apr 3, 2003

Most colleges in my area have extensive remedial programs, etc for strugging students. My son's college advisor admits it is a whole different college atmosphere today than when he (and I) went to college.

He blames the failure of our public schools and feels many students today were not prepared for college in high school. Too many were passed through and are not up to par. So all the remediation is to 'help' these victims of our system. JUCO's here plug into programs/government aid and seem to encourage these revolving doors students who are "still working on that GED" and can't seem to pass their basic courses...meanwhile they're on full assistant grants with living stipends and goin' round the program for the 4th or 5th time...

I see this here in the MA and LVN programs...not sure about the RN but wouldn't doubt it occurs to some extent there too. I agree this is definitely a money making operation for the schools.

I guess they can afford to be humanitarian with all the big $$$ they make off this effort, eh?

Q. · Apr 4, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81

He blames the failure of our public schools and feels many students today were not prepared for college in high school. Too many were passed through and are not up to par.

One of the instructors for the BSN program at the university I am attending was a guest lecturer for one of our curriculum classes, and she was discussing how she was noticing just that: students enter college and have no idea how to take notes, for example, and don't have the skills to listen to an hour long lecture and extrapolate from it what is needed to be learned - also can't speed-read or "skim" effectively and are basically struggling in basic A&P classes and the like.

She blames the public schools reliance on internet tools and visual type learning, so that when it comes to regular, hard core lectures with good old fashioned note-taking, these students don't have a clue. It's terrible.

kimtab · Apr 4, 2003

Look, lots of people DO struggle in nursing school. Lot's of people struggle in college period. But especially in Nursing classes--I think there is a different formula for academic success than most people are used to from other academic areas. I think having resources available is a good idea, and I wouldn't really think to be pissed off if my school started exploring it, although I am doing well without any aid. It benefits all students to have support in place, not just those "borderline" people.

Our school doesn't round grades. Do you know what the difference between a 74.95 (failing) and a 75 (passing) is? One question on one test. You could be losing some good nurses that way. Sometimes all people need is a little support to reach their potential.

Kim

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Apr 4, 2003

Passing scores for my school was nothing below 80%. No rounding up. In addition, in courses that had two components (Lab/clinical and course work), one had to have at least 80% in each portion, not merely average to 80% for both together.

One could fail one course. Any second failed course got you kicked to the curb - NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!

obeyacts2 · Apr 4, 2003

I think the reason students struggle is the way the programs are structured. At our school, you take all the prereqs first, naturally, then the clinical/lecture combo. I have discovered that I have a tough time with classes that are straight dry theory with no practical component. When I took anatomy (anatomy and phys are taught separately) I had a teacher who basically lectured and expected us to regurgitate the text for exams. No practical real life applications were brought up as examples. The reason, our teacher was not a nurse and couldnt have answered anyway. I remember the first question I asked in a class setting. She was lecturing regarding the structure of skin and said something to the effect that "all races skin is structurally identical, the only difference is the amount of melanin" I raised my hand and made this observation " If this is so, why is it (from my 12 yrs of CNA work) that I almost never see decubs on black of very dark hispanic pts, but mainly on the fair skinned patients? She gulped hard and said "I dont know, but if you find out the answer, let me know" I learned quickly dont ask too many questions. So, what I do now is ask around to see which teachers teach a more concrete handon example type teaching. I did great in Microbiology, as our teacher was a former male nurse with a PHD in biology. He lectured, gave practical examples from hospital or case stuudies, then we went to the lab and did hands on stuff. His final exam was 50% case studies where we had to interpret sx, dx based on info given. I say this to make my point, that it isn't necessary an indication of the academic capability of the student or the aptitude for nursing if the student get A's. Some of the people I see being admitted are going to be in deep%^% when they get to clinicals because they are great test takers, but haven't a clue as to thinking skills. BTW my high school SATs were 620 verbal, 500 math.

Laura

mark_LD_RN · Apr 4, 2003

i personally do not believe we should lower the standards so more can get in and/or pass. I would not want a borderline student or nurse caring for me or my family members. I know there is always going to be the arguement that someone knew a student that struggled and they turned out to be good at bedside care. well i personally think nursing in todays world requires more than just being good at the bedside. it requires knowledge and skill.JMHO

sjoe · Apr 4, 2003

Kim writes: "Our school doesn't round grades. Do you know what the difference between a 74.95 (failing) and a 75 (passing) is? One question on one test. "

Wrong! It is ALL the incorrect answers, not just the one that triggers the passing limit. Arguments such as yours can be used to lower ANY standards that might be set, so that ultimately if the person spelled their name mostly correctly at the top, he/she would pass.

Having standards requires defining limits, and to "fuzz up" the limits is to lower the standards, by definition.

Q. · Apr 4, 2003

Likewise, I don't see how we can demand respect, speak of how difficult our training is, but at the same time, demand lowering standards and rouding up grades to pass. You can't have it both ways.

SmilingBluEyes · Apr 4, 2003

I am sorry but I think it needs to be case-by-case. Some people freeze up when testing and still would make AWESOME nurses...my school made no exceptions and a lot of DAMN fine "would-be" nurses did not make it. (our attrition rate was greater than 50% in the late 90s). Then there were some who were geniuses by all didactic standards who scared the shyte outa me and I would not want touching a live human being.

I am lucky, I test brilliantly, graduated with a 4.0, and never had a problem, but I saw some who could barely pass tests who ran circles around me in clinical-----I believe people who are earnest and hard-working and willing to go the extra mile to become a nurse SHOULD be given a chance. And I used to have study groups with these people to help them bring up their grades cause I believed THAT strongly they SHOULD become nurses. Just my opinion on this.

rebel_red · Apr 4, 2003

JMHO:

We homeschool. The main impetus behind this decision was simple, the lowering of educational standards in our country. Please don't take this as a diatribe against teachers. I feel as parents we have failed to maintain and advance our educational system.

I often wonder when teachers find the time to teach. Right now they have assumed so many parental responsibilities: i.e. drug awareness education, socialization skills, empathy training, sex education (actually I'm kinda ok with that, not really looking forward to having that convo with my son! jk :-) ) I looked at my son's school day subtracted the time spent on these subjects and the other little bits and pieces...(getting everyone settled in, addressing discipline issues, doing what I see as "in-services" for children etc.) and realized he received, at the most 3.5 hours of actual education a day. At home we begin our school day at 9am, have a half hour for lunch a half hour for exercise, and conclude at 3pm. He receives a solid 5 hours a day. And as the only student, I know when he doesn't know! (poor kiddo no one to hide behind!) Mean mommy that I am he also is assigned homework and special projects. And of course we take field trips.

He is in 5th grade this year and at the end of last year (as a fourth grader) He tested out at an 11th grade level on the CTBS Terra Nova. (The standardized test utilized by the state of NJ) For a lark a gave him a copy of the GED to pass and he did with a 90% average. Okay I'll stop bragging and get back to my original point. (Oh yes he can also analyze and extrapolate not just regurgitate.)

Point being most of his little buddies can barely read at grade level, have difficulty counting out correct change, and lack any kind of academic confidence. I attribute this to parental negligence. Teachers can only do so much with the time granted them. Parents often fight them each step of the way (i.e anything more than one hour of homework has been deemed "excessive " especially when it interferes with sports programs.)

Currently NJ (where we reside) is considering lowering the passing standards. What will happen when these children come of age? As many have you have pointed out they are ill prepared for high school and college. What happens when theyattempt to enter the work force? Minimum wage is not a viable way to support oneself, let alone a family.

I did try to work within the system. However no one else shared my perception. I realize homeschooling isn't for everyone. I am blessed to have a mother who shares these responsibilities with me.

Just seems to me what is happening in nursing schools reflects the overall, now inherent, issues in our educational system. IMHO we need standards. They enable us to set goals, promote good study/work habits, encourage self responsibility, increase earned self respect, provide a sense of accomplishment through achievement and finally assist us in maintaining our part of the social contract (i.e. living as a mature member of our community).

Ok, thanks for letting me rant on and on and on.........

getting off of my soapbox now......

Tres

suzielee · Apr 4, 2003

Hmm- I know a student who got perfect on a couple of her exams and scored 90s on all the others. In pregrad she couldnt dispense meds to more than 2 patients and wound up double dosing a patient on digitalis! Is this who you want taking care of you or your loved ones? The scary thing is that they puther in emerg for the last half of her pregrad because her marks were so high. Heaven forbid anyone else gets hurt. How can you manage the fast paced load of emerg if you cant even dispense meds for 2 patients. Im thinking our university is not putting safety first. Shouldnt the students with glowing clinical reports get priority in hi risk fast paced enviorments?

kimtab · Apr 5, 2003

Gee, why don't we just start a campaign to get employers to print GPA's right behind the degree on our badges. Then we can all have a rousing debate about whether we want the ADN with a 4.0 or the BSN with a 3.5 taking care of us.

MY POINT WAS not about rounding grades or lowering standards. I didn't realize we were talking about lowering passing averages.. Personally, I agree with most of you but ...I believe It is arbitrary to judge someone's worth by virtue of a number. It's our system God Bless it and it works pretty well most of the time but it just isn't definitive. And that "magic number" you have to make at your school is a "standard" for your school only, not for the profession of nursing. The Nurse who graduated with a 75 at my school would have failed without question at that school that requires an 80.

To be fair, if a school is going to be putting resources in place they have to put them there for the entire student population to use, not just the people who are teetering. And if whatever vague future programs we were originally discussing helps those borderline students get the right answers on the test then what is wrong with that? I assume we weren't talking about passing them crib notes during exam after all--but something more along the lines of study skills and test-taking strategies?