'Borderline' students?

Nurse Izzy · Apr 5, 2003

A couple of points here:

1) about lowering standards - definitely not. This is, to me, the same debate about whether or not female police/fire/soldiers should have different physical standards to adhere to. If you're going to be on the "front line" you should have the same standards as everyone else who is also on that front.

2) Nursing is a whole different world from "regular" college. I graduated with a BA back in 1996 and the studying I did then is completely different from what I do now. It's a different approach - you have to know the info, be able to analyze and rationalize and then apply. Knowing it simply is not enough.

3) my school has a fail once you get to repeat policy. If you fail the second time, you have to wait and then completely reapply to the program - none of the prior coursework (except pre-reqs) counts. We have several repeats in there now - one who really frightens me. She failed med-surg last year. We just had a test and she barely passed (75 is passing she pulled a 77) and said that was all she cared about - at least she's passing. To me, if you're a repeat and all you can manage is barely passing, that says something, like maybe you need to re-think your focus and ambition.

4) Another thing my school does is to counsel students who are in danger of failing. A 75 is passing. If a student has a 74.6 they will counsel them as to whether or not they really need to continue on rather than repeating the course. We also had a girl last semester who had a 74.48 for her final average. They didn't average in the clinical component because they said her theory wasn't strong enough. She was excellent in the clinical aspect but they emphasize that you have to have the theory foundation to progress on - if the foundation your house is built on is weak then it will eventually crumble is what they say.

Just my .02...

jude11142 · Apr 5, 2003

Originally posted by Shamrock
Hmmmm, I know some kick-*^% nurses that struggled
somewhat in the academic setting. I also know some nurses that excelled in academics but don't know their right foot from their left hand. My thoughts are that I would not want to work with judgemental people.

I have to agree with you shamrock. I was a "b" student, sometimes though I did have trouble in certain areas and my lowest grade was "59"(ouch!!). Some of my classmates who were always scoring high 90's-100 on all exams, are not so bright when it comes to working with patients and other medical personnel. They are not very good nurses either. That's not to say that all of the high-scoring students became "bad nurses", it just tells me that because one student may end up with a 75 avg and another with say a 95avg has no bearing on how good of a nurse one will be. I used to get so angry when somebody would say, "I wouldn't want so and so to be my nurse, she can't get over a 85 on tests". Well tell ya what, so and so is excellent on assessments, recognizing signs and symptoms of many diseases/illnesses and more importantly is a compassionate and warm nurse and I would take her for my nurse.

Anyways, just my 2 cents worth.

JUDE

ParalyzeDragon · Oct 22, 2005

Sometimes it may be just helping a person in one area for one semester

that helps them to pass. The may be hump that is overcome by tutoring. Something in the brain just clicks and then the student can make it on their won from there. I was in Pre Cal and then Cal I and needed a tutor...after this something clicked about math. I was able to then finish my first degree in engineering becuase I was helped out for a period of time. The students who are helped have to work hard themselves. Kudos to them.

Nemhain · Oct 22, 2005

If someone is willing to spend extra time getting help and working to pass I am willing to spend extra money to help someone that shows commitment. But I agree that if standards are set and people don't live up to them we needs to enforce them.

Right On!!!

rn/writer, RN · Oct 22, 2005

It's far better to "raise up the student" than to lower the standards.

IMO, helping borderline students to improve their skills is a far better solution than watering down the requirements. I DO think that such help should be conditional on other things like attitude, punctuality, and demonstration of committment. What a student lacks in academic attributes they should make up for in other areas. I'm not for spoon-feeding anyone. If you lack the maturity to make use of tutoring, maybe you need to come back in a year or two.

I'm curious about one thing. At the school I attended, you couldn't even get on the waiting list for clinicals without having passed a three part test that set minimum standards for reading comprehension, writing skills, and math. You could take all the pre-reqs you wanted but you couldn't get into clinicals (or even on the waiting list, as I mentioned) until you had proved that you could function at a certain level. For those who failed any or all of the test, there were many remedial options, some of them at low or no cost.

Don't other schools do this? As I recall, the standards of this qualifying test were set fairly high and some complained. But what this hurdle did was to weed out those students who would have flunked out anyway before they took up clinical spots that were put to better use by the more prepared. In my class (1994) I believe we lost only two students and one was more due to a language barrier (she had actually been an RN in Central America) than lack of ability.

Seems like it benefits everyone to weed out the ill-equipped before they get to clinicals. The remedial students can get the help they need before they're under the incredible pressure of clinicals. And other students who are ready can get into school in a more timely manner.

Lesli61 · Dec 29, 2005

Don't these students have to pass the same NCLEX as everyone else in the country? Remember, the boards are the great equalizer! No matter how much coddling a student gets to pass and get the degree from their school, they STILL have to take that board exam! (YEA) That's why we have a board exam. Otherwise the profession would have no standards.

Undecided7 · Dec 29, 2005

Why don't you focus on your own education and career and try not to get so worked up about other people and how unfair the system is. Just do YOUR best and be the best nurse you can be. Don't worry about the others. You don't have to have solve the whole nursing crisis or anything else now. Put your energy into developing yourself. :nurse:

Sheri257 · Dec 29, 2005

I am totally against lowering standards and providing excessive support to students who can't make it in school.
There's not going to be anyone to hold their hands for them when pts lives are on the line. They need to learn stand on their own two feet.

I have to agree with this one.

I just finished a particularly difficult semester with a very tough instructor. Granted, a lot of her test questions, etc. were unfair BUT, if you studied, you still did ok in her class.

Well ... all of these borderline students went to the Dean and were organizing all of these meetings to protest this instructor because they were failing. But I refused to participate because:

1) they didn't read the books and assigned material

2) they didn't read the syllabus

3) they claimed the instructor didn't cover material in class when, in fact, she did

They expected everything to be spoon fed to them, but nursing school simply doesn't work that way. They would claim that all of this material wasn't covered in the books or syllabus when, in fact, it was. Of course, they didn't have the slightest clue because they never even looked at it.

And even with the material that was covered in lecture, they'd claim that it wasn't covered at all. I'd have to correct them and tell them it was covered because I personally tape and transcribe every single lecture verbatum.

I know for a fact that most of these people didn't study and they don't want to study, they just want less work. They were always bugging me for my transcripts and reading notes because they wanted the quickest short cuts possible to try to pass their exams.

If you start cutting breaks for borderline students, or give them "extra help" of any kind .... they're just going to take advantage of it and not study even more. It will just make the situation worse.

:clown:

a_clay · May 1, 2006

Then there are those that did great in school, and think they are better than everyone else. Just because they got a 4.0 GPA.

I must comment on this one. I am a 4.0 student who also works 45-50 hours per week. I don't think I am better than anyone but it's also hard for me to sympathize when I have already proved to myself that I can do ANYTHING that I set my mind on. This isn't just for me - anyone can do anything they set their mind on. I wasn't lucky or born with a silver spoon in my mouth - I just don't mind hard work. In fact, I am the first in my family to even attend college. But I have already proved to myself that if you want something bad enough, then you will do WHATEVER (within reason, nothing bad here) you need to do to get it. Maybe these people don't want to be a nurse as bad as they say they do. But when you are TRULY passionate about something, then failure isn't an option - you FIND a way to succeed. I don't agree with lowering the standards. Nursing is serious business - it's about people's LIVES - this isn't for just anyone! Higher standards should = better, more competent nurses.

SmilingBluEyes · May 1, 2006

It's far better to "raise up the student" than to lower the standards.
.

This sums it up PERFECTLY!

Bumashes, MSN, APRN, NP · May 1, 2006

My school lets you take a nursing class two times, then it's too bad. The entrance qualifications aren't much, just pass the NET and have at least an 18 on the ACT. However, you also must pass ENG I, PSY I, and A&P I before you can even apply to the program. You must pass these with a C. The english class is easy, the psychology class is medium to medium hard depending on which teacher you get, and the A&P class is hard to super hard depending on the teacher. That is the school's efforts to weed out people before they get into nursing and screw up their chances of ever getting through by failing one of the nursing classes. It works a little, but our program is reputedly one of the more difficult in our region, so even when slackers make it through, they get eaten alive during the first real nursing class. I don't think there's enough emphasis on how difficult nursing school really is. People just think, wow, I can go to school for two years and be a nurse. Well, they are disillusioned pretty quickly around here. However, I do believe that those with a genuine desire to learn but still have difficulty should have help made available to them. But, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

jetsetter · May 1, 2006

Okay, I'm going to address this from a mother's point of view.

My senior in high school is 'academically challenged'. He's a great kid, does very well in science, but math is beyond him. Additionally, he does extremely poorly in any standardize test. He gets help at school for certain subjects, and he will graduate this May.

I also have a junior in high school. Does very well academically and in sports. Have been getting letters DAILY from colleges trying to interest him in attending their school. So we've been getting info on the admission standards to get into a lot of different schools.

Here's my beef.

Every school wants overachievers, they all want valedictorians. Hey, only one kid gets to be valedictorian, I don't care if they're brilliant.

they want them to be ranked in the top 25% of their class. They want brilliant ATC scores. if not, too bad. go somewhere else.

Where?

What are the other 75% of the kids supposed to do? We're talking about the MAJORITY of graduating kids.

Used to be they'd go to work at a local factory, or other mindless kind of job. Do you know any factories hiring? Do you know any factories not worried about closing their doors? I don't.

So here's my thing....

Maybe we do need to give some kids some "extra help" to make a schools' standard. I'm not saying they should just get into programs and have the standards lowered. My son just needs a little extra "jolt" to make his brain accept info you and I take for granted.

We have to accept that the world is changing, and we have to change with it.