Addressing the Predicted Nursing Shortage - page 4

allnurses.com staffers were recently fortunate to interview Audrey Wirth, MSN, RN-BC, CVRN-BC adjunct clinical instructor at Aurora University's School of Nursing and Allied Health. She has published... Read More

  1. by   OldDude
    Quote from CeciBean
    I agree pretty much with everything that has been posted. I'm retired now, but the "nursing shortage" was predicted many years ago when I was in school.
    So was the BSN-only. And my thoughts about that, after 30 years in the field, 28 active, are this...I trained an awful lot of brand new BSNs, and they mostly came out with heads stuffed full of book learning and not one clue about how to take care of a patient. Oh, I'm sure they could write a beautiful care plan, much better than mine from my ADN school days (I remember mine, they were full of red ink when I got them back!), but when it came to putting that into practice, most of them hadn't the first idea where to start. The exceptions were those who had worked as CNAs, and those were darn few. They had watched and listened, and they knew nursing from the ground up. Now when young people ask me about nursing, I tell them to try CNA work first, or maybe even EMT if they're really gung ho, and they if they still like it, go on and get their ADN and *then* work while they get a BSN, maybe even online. A BSN is a nice thing to have for advancement, but not necessarily a good thing to have for a starter. You don't learn how to take care of patients in a BSN program. You learn how to take care of theory. The last place I worked had a good partnership with the state university in town so that your work counted as clinicals. They also reimbursed you if you got a B or better in your courses from anywhere.

    As far as a shortage, maybe if our workplaces treated us better, there wouldn't be one. I saw so much when I was a traveler that really made me sick and disgusted with the whole business. I could write a book about it, and maybe I will someday What I will say is that the best place I worked had a CNO who had literally risen through the ranks....started out as an RT, went to nursing school and worked the floors, eventually got the advanced degree and went into management and rose to CNO. The nursing culture was completely different at that hospital, and I believe it was *because* they had a CNP who knew what it was all about, from the bottom up. Would that it were like that elsewhere.
    Amen!!
  2. by   OldDude
    Quote from SpankedInPittsburgh
    Yep. That's a shame if macro-economics go south then there is not much an individual can do except go for the ride. However, once again I'm not from Canada and can't really address that. I can only comment on what I've seen and experienced in my job market. Here you shouldn't break the bank to be a nurse. If you do you've made a poor economic decision unless you have lots of time to recoup your investment & even then it's not necessary. I'm far from the only nurse to have climbed an educational ladder using an employer's financing and not jumping into a deep financial hole to get a job that graduates from a Community College can qualify for in about a year for less than the cost of a descent used car.
    Here in South Texas we have several huge wind turbine farms; also in northwest Texas. In that regard we have a state junior college campus in this area that teaches the profession. An associate degree in the field will land you a base salary job of about 60K and your certification lends you to be qualified to work in many related fields. Just sayin.
  3. by   Farawyn
    Quote from Jedrnurse
    What does EBP say is the best anti-emetic for the inevitable nausea that comes when one reads about "the nursing shortage"?
    What happened to your face?
  4. by   Jedrnurse
    Quote from Farawyn
    What happened to your face?
    I o.d'ed on Nursing Theories and it exploded...
  5. by   OldDude
    Quote from Farawyn
    What happened to your face?
    Quote from Jedrnurse
    I o.d'ed on Nursing Theories and it exploded...
    I was wondering about that too...
  6. by   SpankedInPittsburgh
    hmm,

    The wind-mill guys are smart enough to do an economic analysis of whether an investment in education to procure gainful employment is worth it? Good for them. I think one of the nurses commenting above hit on the point very well. Nurses who think they have a "calling" are willing to listen to nonsense about poor pay and being expected to finance their own training and often get to settle for low pay & high debt. Nurses who look at this profession as primarily a means to earn a living while doing something good for their fellow man take economics into account. I think many of us keenly aware of the economics are on our second career. The nurse above broke it down in terms of nursing being a woman dominated profession. I don't think that's the case. I believe it has more to do with experience and life circumstance. I think many of these Universities sell young people a bill of goods with respect to racking up huge debt that is to be paid off by a great job when they graduate. However, that great job never materializes and much of the education is driven by the profit motive of the university and not the educational or economic needs of the student. Nursing is a case in point. If you spent $150K to get a $60K a year job you made a bad decision because you could have spent less than $10K to get the same job. If you have some employer telling you need to double down on your investment just to maintain the status quo you should walk because its not worth it. All's I'm saying is that nurses should do the same economic analysis that every other profession do before investing time and effort in to pursuing any degree
  7. by   Tacomaboy3
    Quote from CaffeinePOQ4HPRN
    Ok stable genius, that's cute. On a side, lawyers and physicians actually see financial returns on their educational investments. Nurses do not. So, put on your adult underpants honey... then, go to the library like us COBs did waaaay back when, and brush up on history and evolution of nursing. You're doing this trade-profession a disservice by dismissing negative trends and telling others to basically shut up and drink up the poison. Nursing is a trade-profession, open a textbook and review its history. No one is declaring that extended education is valueless. All education is valuable. I should know I have 3 degrees. If I was independently wealthy I'd obtain more (degrees). The crux of most people's discord with the push for mandatory BScN is that it's an irrationally formalized requirement that doesn't match employment trends or translate into real world skills. Moreover, the promise that a BScN degree will pay off rests on some questionable assumptions. Many BScN graduates have yet to earn back on their investment, and many stats demonstrate they may never earn the value back over a lifetime. One important caveat is that it is the norm to go into exorbitant debt on one's education: just ask the hundreds of thousands of nursing graduates who have not found work as nurses, or those suffering with precarious employment trends... or borrowers who are either crippled by student loan payments or have defaulted their federal student loans within a few years of graduating. The BScN is not required to perform nursing skills. The detraction from hands-on clinical skill in favour of increased theoretical study does not solve or improve any of the increasingly disturbing issues we're seeing emerge in nursing.

    Many nurses would not react so strongly against obtaining more and more education if it actually translated into improving the quality of their work, employment options, and increased income. What we're seeing is a push towards higher and higher credentials, at increasingly unaffordable costs to nurses with no employment guarantees to earn back on their investment. Nurses are not martyrs, and to encourage nurses to martyr themselves and risk poverty is asinine. It is in the "bean counters" interest to push towards inflating enrollment because education is a big bu$iness that theyre reaping most of the benefits from, just ask all the struggling nursing graduates. If they want to declare a new credentials standard, when research/reality are increasingly showing it's a low return investment... yes, then hospitals/facilities should pay or at the very least subsidize part of it. Forcing people to go into debt to obtain more credentials (which aren't required to perform the job) for imaginary employment is ludicrous.

    The sentiment being communicated to nurses (by corporations, hospitals, academia) is that they have no interest in making things better, nor are they making tangible efforts to make things better. Instead, they're basically saying...The beatings will continue until morale improves.
    I have several things to say:

    Firstly, you're comparing me to Trump? Seriously? Lol. Additionally, your "that's cute" and "honey" comments are passive aggressive -I don't get it. Why are those comments necessary? To passively denigrate me? It's unprofessional, but I suppose the anonymity of an online username gives you great courage. Bravo! I prefer liquor, but at least I don't turn mean.

    Secondly, you said nurses don't see returns on their educational investments. I kind of get what you're saying, but your statement isn't the most accurate. Wages/salaries for bedside RNs, regardless of degree, are fairly similar within institutions, but a BSN or higher greatly increases your income potential - whether it's leaving the bedside or transferring to a higher-paying hospital while still at the bedside.

    Thirdly, I'm unsure why you brought up the history of nursing and telling me to brush up. Hm okay, I will? But, registered nursing is still a profession.

    Fourthly, I never said in my post that BSN-opposers should shut up and drink the poison...nor all that other rambling you did. I think you misinterpreted my post. If RNs are content with their jobs and plan on retiring in the same role, all power to them - a BSN certainly won't help their pay or clinical competency. But, I also feel that the culture of nursing is changing, with fewer RNs retiring at the bedside and fewer RNs staying within the same department or employer - a BSN gives them flexibility to move around and augments their competitiveness for higher-paying jobs. It's not imaginary employment. That's like calling Warren Buffet a fool for investing his money in the stock market, all for the sake of future imaginary payoffs.

    Perhaps my original post was lacking in brevity. This is what I meant - a bachelor's degree in nursing has NEVER been about increasing one's clinical competence, which is why it seems a bridge program is filled with useless classes. But, if you want future career flexibility and better income potential, then pull up those panties and take those seemingly useless classes. Whether it is personally worth it is up to the individual's circumstances.

    Additionally, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have to accrue massive debt for a BSN, so I don't get your martyrdom analogy. And if you do, then it's your fault, and no one else's. Personal finance and awareness is a great skill.

    I'm not yet for a mandated BSN. And until it is, I likely will never get one.

    Now, go change out of your soiled big girl panties, please.
  8. by   LibraSunCNM
    Quote from Tacomaboy3
    I have several things to say:

    Firstly, you're comparing me to Trump? Seriously? Lol. Additionally, your "that's cute" and "honey" comments are passive aggressive -I don't get it. Why are those comments necessary? To passively denigrate me? It's unprofessional, but I suppose the anonymity of an online username gives you great courage. Bravo! I prefer liquor, but at least I don't turn mean.

    Secondly, you said nurses don't see returns on their educational investments. I kind of get what you're saying, but your statement isn't the most accurate. Wages/salaries for bedside RNs, regardless of degree, are fairly similar within institutions, but a BSN or higher greatly increases your income potential - whether it's leaving the bedside or transferring to a higher-paying hospital while still at the bedside.

    Thirdly, I'm unsure why you brought up the history of nursing and telling me to brush up. Hm okay, I will? But, registered nursing is still a profession.

    Fourthly, I never said in my post that BSN-opposers should shut up and drink the poison...nor all that other rambling you did. I think you misinterpreted my post. If RNs are content with their jobs and plan on retiring in the same role, all power to them - a BSN certainly won't help their pay or clinical competency. But, I also feel that the culture of nursing is changing, with fewer RNs retiring at the bedside and fewer RNs staying within the same department or employer - a BSN gives them flexibility to move around and augments their competitiveness for higher-paying jobs. It's not imaginary employment. That's like calling Warren Buffet a fool for investing his money in the stock market, all for the sake of future imaginary payoffs.

    Perhaps my original post was lacking in brevity. This is what I meant - a bachelor's degree in nursing has NEVER been about increasing one's clinical competence, which is why it seems a bridge program is filled with useless classes. But, if you want future career flexibility and better income potential, then pull up those panties and take those seemingly useless classes. Whether it is personally worth it is up to the individual's circumstances.

    Additionally, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have to accrue massive debt for a BSN, so I don't get your martyrdom analogy. And if you do, then it's your fault, and no one else's. Personal finance and awareness is a great skill.

    I'm not yet for a mandated BSN. And until it is, I likely will never get one.

    Now, go change out of your soiled big girl panties, please.
    Thank you for your sane, rational reply! Couldn't agree more. If you don't want to get a BSN, don't get one. If you've got an ADN, found an area of nursing where you're comfortable and a BSN truly won't be of any benefit to you, then more power to you. But to deny that that is where the profession is headed, and to claim that furthering one's education in nursing by involving loosely-related topics or courses, rather than sticking strictly to hands-on tasks only, is "fluff" or a waste of time, is just stubbornly keeping one's head in the sand, IMO. The nursing profession is rapidly adjusting to meet the growing needs of an ever-changing healthcare system. This includes a push towards more education for nurses. Adapt or die.
  9. by   JKL33
    With the ever-increasing physician shortage, NPs are becoming the primary care provider in many areas, especially the rural ones. How would you propose to keep BSN nurses at the bedside versus continuing their education?

    In all honesty, I would never encourage any nurse not to advance their education. I believe this would be shooting our profession in the foot. Mid-level providers are an excellent avenue for healthcare and when partnered with a physician practice they have proven to have better patient outcomes. Instead, I would encourage young nurses to pursue their BSN degree from the start of their college education. Many nursing schools are turning away qualified applicants because they do not have the faculty capacity to teach more students. So, I believe we should be looking here, at the potential student nurse population to grow the number of bedside nurses. If we want to grow the population of nurses, we need more nursing faculty.
    This is a very poor question - there is little I genuinely HATE more than the implication that being educated and/or continuing one's education is mutually exclusive of being at the bedside.

    Next, the answer is mind-boggling for its spectacular failure to give the obvious answer - which is very, very simple: Stop.treating.bedside.nurses.like.crap.

    On the whole, there is no nursing shortage. There is a shortage of people who want to be treated like crap.
    Last edit by JKL33 on Jan 10
  10. by   Daisy4RN
    I think that the only shortage is in bedside nurse positions. I am not sure the way to solve that problem is by having many more BSN educated nurses. It has been my experience that not only does the BSN prepared nurse not (necessarily) provide better care to patients they also tend to leave bedside jobs faster to pursue "better" jobs (meaning not bedside). I can see why some jobs may require a BSN but not sure the bedside nurse needs to have one if that individual does not want to obtain it, for what ever reason. As others have stated, I also believe the only shortage is in bedside nursing and that will only be solved by changes made by hospital admin to retain nurses (I wont be holding my breath though!).
  11. by   FSZ Student Nurse
    Quote from OldDude
    Fast forward to today...benefits are chipped away every year, salaries are stagnant, nurses are worked into the ground with no equipment or limited equipment while admin offices are renovated with posh furniture, carpeting, and decorations. I could go on but most of you know what I'm talking about.

    So my cure for the nurse staffing problem is to return to taking care of the one who is out there generating the income. Without the nurses and other licensed healthcare staff there would be no shark for the remora to attach themselves to. This is the reason I think nurses are drying up.

    Thanks for listening...
    OldDude, I agree that hospitals are not treating RNs well enough to attract new ones. I am in Nursing School and most people in my class are interested in earning an NP because bedside nursing has become less and less attractive over the years. The scheduling, pay and attitudes that hospitals have towards their nurses does not seem so rosy from the outside.
  12. by   FSZ Student Nurse
    Quote from Katillac
    Given that there's no good research showing BSN prepared nurses provide care resulting in better outcomes, I too have been racking my brain to figure out why the push. The only consistent rationale I can find is that the BSN prepares nurses for leadership roles, in which case I say let those who want those roles go for the BSN. To the bedside nurse, the BSN hoops are just more evidence of management's ever increasing arbitrary and burdensome requirements.
    Agreed!

    Most BSN level courses are focused on research, communication and leadership skills. Great for management, useless for the bedside.
  13. by   CaffeinePOQ4HPRN
    Quote from Tacomaboy3
    I have several things to say:

    Firstly, you're comparing me to Trump? Seriously? Lol. Additionally, your "that's cute" and "honey" comments are passive aggressive -I don't get it. Why are those comments necessary? To passively denigrate me? It's unprofessional, but I suppose the anonymity of an online username gives you great courage. Bravo! I prefer liquor, but at least I don't turn mean.

    Secondly, you said nurses don't see returns on their educational investments. I kind of get what you're saying, but your statement isn't the most accurate. Wages/salaries for bedside RNs, regardless of degree, are fairly similar within institutions, but a BSN or higher greatly increases your income potential - whether it's leaving the bedside or transferring to a higher-paying hospital while still at the bedside.

    Thirdly, I'm unsure why you brought up the history of nursing and telling me to brush up. Hm okay, I will? But, registered nursing is still a profession.

    Fourthly, I never said in my post that BSN-opposers should shut up and drink the poison...nor all that other rambling you did. I think you misinterpreted my post. If RNs are content with their jobs and plan on retiring in the same role, all power to them - a BSN certainly won't help their pay or clinical competency. But, I also feel that the culture of nursing is changing, with fewer RNs retiring at the bedside and fewer RNs staying within the same department or employer - a BSN gives them flexibility to move around and augments their competitiveness for higher-paying jobs. It's not imaginary employment. That's like calling Warren Buffet a fool for investing his money in the stock market, all for the sake of future imaginary payoffs.

    Perhaps my original post was lacking in brevity. This is what I meant - a bachelor's degree in nursing has NEVER been about increasing one's clinical competence, which is why it seems a bridge program is filled with useless classes. But, if you want future career flexibility and better income potential, then pull up those panties and take those seemingly useless classes. Whether it is personally worth it is up to the individual's circumstances.

    Additionally, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have to accrue massive debt for a BSN, so I don't get your martyrdom analogy. And if you do, then it's your fault, and no one else's. Personal finance and awareness is a great skill.

    I'm not yet for a mandated BSN. And until it is, I likely will never get one.

    Now, go change out of your soiled big girl panties, please.
    @Tacomaboy3 You initiated the snark by telling me to not get my panties in a wad, along with other low brow comments. To me, that along with your hypocrisy is very Trump-esque behaviour. You denigrated yourself. YOU ARE A NURSING STUDENT - walk before you run. You're not yet a nurse, so perhaps humble yourself and take a page from seasoned nurses and use this as a teachable moment, reflective practice...If you can't take the snark than don't dish it out in the first place honey buns

    Also, the industry is not a bubble within which only your circumstances exist and to deny/blame people for being disenfranchised is illogical. I am speaking to the experience of many people, but especially the nursing students I train. Institutions do NOT pay for or subsidize continuing education for nurses in Canada; here, we're all forced to pay out of pocket for revised credential requirements, including the BScN. A lot of countries function this way unfortunately. Do you not study global health where you were educated?

    Lastly, I have a BScN while you are still a nursing student... nowhere did I say a BScN wasn't valuable. That's not the issue that was being addressed. You've missed the point completely.
    Last edit by CaffeinePOQ4HPRN on Jan 10 : Reason: typos

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