Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up.
Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.
Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.
56 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Yes but the data in the above article seems to show (albeit from a data pool too small to draw definitive conclusions) that the vaccines may be selecting for the most virulent resistant strains while the unvaccinated and those with previous immunity from infection may be more prone to get (and pass on) the less virulent strains. Thus, the vaccines may be helping to support "super strains" leading the a need for endless "boosters" to combat ever more capable pathogenic strains.
That's your interpretation, not my understanding.
11 hours ago, myoglobin said:
I am a mental health provider and do not give advice on vaccination it is outside my scope of practice.
75% of this thread has been you providing your advice on vaccination. My area expertise 10+ yrs nursing management is employer requirements, Med Surg, Adult health care so accurate info posted here. Members have posted repeatedly regarding your misunderstanding and inaccurate interpretation of data.
Employeers CAN require vaccinations. Pfizer previously applied and Moderna applied today for full COVID-19 vaccine approval.
75% of this thread has been you providing your advice on vaccination. My area expertise 10+ yrs nursing management is employer requirements, Med Surg, Adult health care so accurate info posted here. Members have posted repeatedly regarding your misunderstanding and inaccurate interpretation of data.
Employeers CAN require vaccinations. Pfizer previously applied and Moderna applied today for full COVID-19 vaccine approval.
Time for you to bow out of this thread.
I have never professed to be "an expert" on immunizations. Since when did that become a requirement for having an opinion and being an advocate for nurses and other citizens? I do not question that employers "can" require the Covid vaccine under "color of law", but find such laws to be unjust and a threat to our basic rights to determine medical treatments and perhaps in violation of the Nuremburg code (at least as long as they are emergency use). I also find your proclivity to ignore the disturbing VAERS and other data troubling and hope that it doesn't reflect upon your level of concern for your clients, and employees. You can rest assured that I will never bow out of any debate so long as liberty is at stakes and relevant points need to be stated.
Not one part of that sentence makes any sense whatsoever. I sat and looked at it and I have no idea what you are trying to prove.
My reading of the article leads me to think that people who are vaccinated are 80 - 95% protected but the (very) small number of people who catch the virus after vaccination are a) catching a milder form of the disease (requiring no or little hospitalization) and b) they are catching a more virulent variation.
"The study showed that all 20 were infected with variants of concern that have been driving second waves of Covid in many parts of the world"
"None of the 20 patients studied were hospitalised"
So I would think that that disproves your thinking as it seems, to me anyway, that it shows that vaccines are good at what they do.
Seriously Grumpy did you miss this part:
While everyone in the vaccinated group had a variant of concern, only 67 per cent of non-vaccinated individuals did. The study also showed that the vaccinated individuals infected with Covid had high viral loads.
Dr Pavitra Roychoudhury, the lead author of the study, said the "prevailing understanding" was that while vaccine breakthrough cases would occur, they would be mild.
"But in contrast to that, what we saw among our 20 samples was that a number of them actually had quite robust viral loads. That was concerning in the sense that there was definitely enough virus to sequence, and potentially there might be enough virus to transmit," she said.
The key point is that everyone who was vaccinated (and had the disease) had a Covid variant associated with more virulence. Now 67 % of those who were not vaccinated also had a more virulent strain and that isn't great either, but it is less than everyone. Also the vaccinated individuals had "robust viral loads" (of the variants of concerned). I conclude that it may very well be the casethat the vaccines are selecting for amplification of variants of "concern". However, as I pointed out this sample size is too small to draw that conclusion, but it does raise the need for larger samples of vaccinated verses unvaccinated individuals to provide a more robust ability to draw conclusions.
I have never professed to be "an expert" on immunizations. Since when did that become a requirement for having an opinion and being an advocate for nurses and other citizens? I do not question that employers "can" require the Covid vaccine under "color of law", but find such laws to be unjust and a threat to our basic rights to determine medical treatments and perhaps in violation of the Nuremburg code (at least as long as they are emergency use). There was a time when women in many states had to obtain abortions in "back alleys" and people of color had to drink from segregated fountains and that was "the law" and in many cases the requirement of the time. I also find your proclivity to ignore the disturbing VAERS and other data troubling and hope that it doesn't reflect upon your level of concern for your clients, and employees. You can rest assured that I will never bow out of any debate so long as liberty is at stakes and relevant points need to be stated.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
It's clear that you aren't an expert in virology or public health aeb your remarks in these threads, myoglobin. What's alarming is that you seem immune to credible and compelling science but simultaneously emotionally attached to any resource which feeds your fears and doubts.
No one is ignoring VAERS but you are certainly blowing that data out of proportion with terrible comprehension and analysis of the data...over and over again in spite of knowing better at this point. You cling to that fear and misrepresentation of VAERS even though provided factual information about the database.
While everyone in the vaccinated group had a variant of concern, only 67 per cent of non-vaccinated individuals did. The study also showed that the vaccinated individuals infected with Covid had high viral loads.
Dr Pavitra Roychoudhury, the lead author of the study, said the "prevailing understanding" was that while vaccine breakthrough cases would occur, they would be mild.
"But in contrast to that, what we saw among our 20 samples was that a number of them actually had quite robust viral loads. That was concerning in the sense that there was definitely enough virus to sequence, and potentially there might be enough virus to transmit," she said.
The key point is that everyone who was vaccinated (and had the disease) had a Covid variant associated with more virulence. Now 67 % of those who were not vaccinated also had a more virulent strain and that isn't great either, but it is less than everyone. Also the vaccinated individuals had "robust viral loads" (of the variants of concerned). I conclude that it may very well be the casethat the vaccines are selecting for amplification of variants of "concern". However, as I pointed out this sample size is too small to draw that conclusion, but it does raise the need for larger samples of vaccinated verses unvaccinated individuals to provide a more robust ability to draw conclusions.
I missed nothing and I have no idea what you are looking at. The data shows that vaccinated people are less likely to end up in hospital if they catch the virus. So perhaps if EVERYBODY JUST GOT THE VACCINE we can get on with life and know that like colds and flu - you know, those viruses that we live with year round - this virus will eventually become manageable. Or of course we go down your route where the selfish, ignorant, stupid few refuse to get vaccinated for, reasons. This means that the virus will continue to mutate and we never get on top of it and continually live in a state of lock-down and release. All because people like you think that your "rights" are more important than the rest of us and you conveniently forget about your responsibilities to society.
Just so that you are aware, when I read the nonsense you write, in my head it sounds like Jeff Dunham's puppet Bubba J. I seriously am waiting for you to suggest that beer is a good antidote for Covid.
75% of this thread has been you providing your advice on vaccination.
Time for you to bow out of this thread.
(Partial, edited quote).
Hear, hear!
2 hours ago, myoglobin said:
Seriously Grumpy did you miss this part:
While everyone in the vaccinated group had a variant of concern, only 67 per cent of non-vaccinated individuals did. The study also showed that the vaccinated individuals infected with Covid had high viral loads.
Dr Pavitra Roychoudhury, the lead author of the study, said the "prevailing understanding" was that while vaccine breakthrough cases would occur, they would be mild.
"But in contrast to that, what we saw among our 20 samples was that a number of them actually had quite robust viral loads. That was concerning in the sense that there was definitely enough virus to sequence, and potentially there might be enough virus to transmit," she said.
The key point is that everyone who was vaccinated (and had the disease) had a Covid variant associated with more virulence. Now 67 % of those who were not vaccinated also had a more virulent strain and that isn't great either, but it is less than everyone. Also the vaccinated individuals had "robust viral loads" (of the variants of concerned). I conclude that it may very well be the casethat the vaccines are selecting for amplification of variants of "concern". However, as I pointed out this sample size is too small to draw that conclusion, but it does raise the need for larger samples of vaccinated verses unvaccinated individuals to provide a more robust ability to draw conclusions.
I am so tired of you always attempting to draw the most negative conclusion possible of every vaccine-related study that you link or someone else has linked.
The study discussed here is a pre-print I believe and they compared 20 vaccinated healthcare workers (!) with breakthrough infections to 5,174 unvaccinated individuals in the general public who were diagnosed with a Covid-19 infection in the same time period (Feb 23 - Apr 27) as the 20 healthcare workers.
I’m just guessing here, but could the more than 5,000 people have been infected by a more diverse/virally heterogeneous so to speak... population than the 20 healthcare workers? It doesn’t say if the healthcare staff worked with Covid patients or not. Just food for thought.
It’s definitely interesting that all twenty were infected with variants of concern, while 68% in the much larger control group were. We need more research.
But this is hardly reason to stop vaccinating. On the contrary! I’m sure you noted that the number of breakthrough cases is quite small. (I’m guessing that they vaccinated way more than 20 healthcare workers ?) But the number of infected in the unvaccinated control group is much larger.
68% x 5,174 = 3,518. So even if not all unvaccinated individuals tested positive for a variant of concern, there was still thousands of individuals who did.
The vaccines are based on the original Wuhan-I strain sequenced more than a year ago in January of 2020. I would logically expect it to be the best fit for that strain but several studies have shown that they are also effective against some of the variants that have evolved since.
The reason we now have many new variants isn’t vaccines! The reason is that the virus has been allowed to roam the earth at will for more than a year. Keeping transmission rates at the current high level increases the risk of even more variants evolving. We should vaccinate globally as quickly as we can and make the conditions for the virus to infect large numbers of new hosts, much less favorable.
So myoglobin, this is just a news article but it is really good news ?
A city in Brazil saw Covid deaths decrease with 95%, hospitalizations decrease with 86% and symptomatic disease decrease by 80% when 75% of all adults had been fully vaccinated.
Will you join me in a celebration of the wonders of vaccines? ??
In my humble opinion, I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.
However, I will continue to watch, if only for entertainment value. For any instructors out there, this thread has provided prime examples for a research class on how not to choose reference articles and how not to interpret them.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
5 minutes ago, nursej22 said:
In my humble opinion, I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.
However, I will continue to watch, if only for entertainment value. For any instructors out there, this thread has provided prime examples for a research class on how not to choose reference articles and how not to interpret them.
Honestly, I muted him for a short while. But it's very unbecoming to have such rubbish unanswered in threads such as these and I started reading his comments again.
The Ivy League university announced Tuesday it would require all faculty, staff and post-doctoral trainees to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by Aug. 1. It previously announced that students would need the vaccination for the fall semester except for those with medical or religious exceptions.
We recognize that some individuals will choose not to obtain vaccines for medical and religious reasons, and some may choose not to disclose their vaccine status. Faculty, staff, and postdoctoral trainees who are not fully vaccinated will be required to continue to participate in daily symptom checks on PennOpen Pass and weekly Penn Cares screening testing, as well as to continue to wear masks indoors....
... Vaccine availability
There is clear evidence that vaccines are both safe and highly effective at stopping the spread of COVID-19. More than 1.7 billion vaccine doses have been administered worldwide and half of the adult population in the U.S. are vaccinated. The protection provided by the vaccines is proven to be very high. Unvaccinated individuals, however, still have a high COVID-19 case rate.....
I missed nothing and I have no idea what you are looking at. The data shows that vaccinated people are less likely to end up in hospital if they catch the virus. So perhaps if EVERYBODY JUST GOT THE VACCINE we can get on with life and know that like colds and flu - you know, those viruses that we live with year round - this virus will eventually become manageable. Or of course we go down your route where the selfish, ignorant, stupid few refuse to get vaccinated for, reasons. This means that the virus will continue to mutate and we never get on top of it and continually live in a state of lock-down and release. All because people like you think that your "rights" are more important than the rest of us and you conveniently forget about your responsibilities to society.
Just so that you are aware, when I read the nonsense you write, in my head it sounds like Jeff Dunham's puppet Bubba J. I seriously am waiting for you to suggest that beer is a good antidote for Covid.
If you "missed nothing" then you would concede the point about the greater percentage (all) having resistant or more virulent forms of Covid and higher viral loads. Also your concepts of "rights" may in fact be different from mine given that you live in nation that does not have the same Bill of Rights and other Amendments.
NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN
10 Articles; 19,190 Posts
That's your interpretation, not my understanding.
75% of this thread has been you providing your advice on vaccination. My area expertise 10+ yrs nursing management is employer requirements, Med Surg, Adult health care so accurate info posted here. Members have posted repeatedly regarding your misunderstanding and inaccurate interpretation of data.
Employeers CAN require vaccinations. Pfizer previously applied and Moderna applied today for full COVID-19 vaccine approval.
Time for you to bow out of this thread.