Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up.
Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
58 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Only for someone either unfamiliar with the dictates of logic or deliberately mischaracterizing the arguments of his ideological adversary. I actually had an advanced logic course in college and like almost every other course during my academic career scored straight A's. Reasonable people can disagree. I understand and affirm your position ( almost everyone should vaccinate always without question) I simply ask that you respect my position (vaccines have risks and benefits and the decision to vaccinate is a personal one). Note, I am not asking that you agree with my position only that you affirm that I have an intrinsic right to hold it any more than I say agree with the position of Amish families to only educate their children to the 8th grade or those who believe that getting an abortion or supporting hormone therapy for their 13 year old child who has decided to switch genders. I understand without supporting these positions and realize that they emanate out of rich cultural, educational, and intellectual diversity.
Sure.
The evidence says otherwise relative to logic. Again with making this personal and about you. Your comments here do not reflect logical thinking with a reasonable risk to benefit analysis of the data about covid vaccines and no one is being forced to vaccinate. Let's drop the anxious emotions and fear mongering and talk about patriotic duty to country, duty to our patients and community as we struggle to get through this unprecedented pandemic, shall we? Because insisting that people are being forced to vaccinate with vaccines that you believe appear to be unsafe is simply nonsense.
The evidence says otherwise relative to logic. Again with making this personal and about you. Your comments here do not reflect logical thinking with a reasonable risk to benefit analysis of the data about covid vaccines and no one is being forced to vaccinate. Let's drop the anxious emotions and fear mongering and talk about patriotic duty to country, duty to our patients and community as we struggle to get through this unprecedented pandemic, shall we? Because insisting that people are being forced to vaccinate with vaccines that you believe appear to be unsafe is simply nonsense.
So are you unaware of jobs and colleges requiring vaccination to attend school or keep the job or you do not consider this "force"? Do you consider this "acceptable force" if so at least have the strength of your convictions to state such and distinguish it from a superior who says to his employee "go on a date with me or lose your job" or another who says "anyone who votes for the union is fired". Do you consider some of these scenarios involving a job loss to not be force are some "okay" and others not?
As another poster has noted you keep telling us this and I find it tiresome. Bragging about how you and your partner will make over a million dollars this year but also touting that you have no health insurance and no plan to pay your $100,000.00 student loan dept (Which by the way can be felony larceny by conversion in some state actuall turns my stomach. So many deserving people who need those and can't get them due to the high default rate of previous borrower' s is as I said in somecases Criminal and if it isn't it should be. " I may not be making the kind of money you claim to be making but all my school debt is paid off and I am also a responsible adult who takes care of my responsibilities. I actually find your claims hard to believe but if you can live with yourself and sleep at night knowing you are defrauding the government who extended these loans with every expection of being paid back is nothing to be proud of. "
I actually wasn't going to post this for fear of hyjacking the thread but it's wandered so far from it's sorce that it hardly matters anymore.
All of my loans are on time and in deferral,I have never had even a late student loan payment. Are you unaware that current federal policy puts all student loans in automatic deferral due to Covid until at least Septhttps://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/coronavirus . No doubt with current fiscal policy I will be able to use one months pay to pay off my student loans and the next month's income to buy a loaf of bread. Also, in 2019 my income was about 25K as I was finishing my PMHNP and working part time. When I started in Jan 2020 I was earning about 1,700 per month. by Dec of last year about 30K and now about 42K per month. We use health sharing through a company called Zion that will cover major things like an operation in most cases. I pointed this out only that I have a great deal to lose and very little in the way of "back up" and am willing to risk it all in the name of opposing forced vaccination .
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
So are you unaware of jobs and colleges requiring vaccination to attend school or keep the job or you do not consider this "force"? Do you consider this "acceptable force" if so at least have the strength of your convictions to state such and distinguish it from a superior who says to his employee "go on a date with me or lose your job" or another who says "anyone who votes for the union is fired". Do you consider some of these scenarios involving a job loss to not be force are some "okay" and others not?
We've gone over the hyperbolic use of the word "force" when speaking about vaccination. Your emotional reaction to the requirement is well noted, but that individual anxiety doesn't change the definition of the word "forced". Perhaps you should try using words like required, compelled, or "terms of employment" .
Do you seriously think that requiring health professionals to be vaccinated during a pandemic is similar to sexual harassment in the workplace or union busting? Are you serious?
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
So we agree that vaccinations are being "forced" under the pretense of law.
No, there's no agreement that vaccinations are forced.
We've gone over the hyperbolic use of the word "force" when speaking about vaccination. Your emotional reaction to the requirement is well noted, but that individual anxiety doesn't change the definition of the word "forced". Perhaps you should try using words like required, compelled, or "terms of employment" .
Do you seriously think that requiring health professionals to be vaccinated during a pandemic is similar to sexual harassment in the workplace or union busting? Are you serious?
Yes, as someone who is opposed to this vaccine for a plethora of reasons ranging from the use of aborted fetal cells in its development (or production in the case of J and J) to concerns about health affects I very much feel "compelled". I feel this violates my religious convictions, and my rights. I also feel that any reasonable person would consider the words "compelled" and forced to be synonyms. At the same time I would seeing requiring a "date" from an overly friendly boss to be a matter of degree. As I've pointed out I will probably give up my job and even "take a bullet" on the principles involved here.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
25 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Yes, as someone who is opposed to this vaccine for a plethora of reasons ranging from the use of aborted fetal cells in its development (or production in the case of J and J) to concerns about health affects I very much feel "compelled". I feel this violates my religious convictions, and my rights. I also feel that any reasonable person would consider the words "compelled" and forced to be synonyms. At the same time I would seeing requiring a "date" from an overly friendly boss to be a matter of degree. As I've pointed out I will probably give up my job and even "take a bullet" on the principles involved here.
Well, you are wrong again. No reasonable person is going to consider you "forced" to vaccinate when you've described your education, employment and finances in the ways that you have. Nope.
The fact that you can simply get another source of income as a health professional makes your claim of "forced" vaccinating sound silly. You are willing to suffer job loss and that financial impact for emotional rather than logical or scientifically sound reasons. No one is forcing you to do anything. You are making choices which may impact your options...take credit.
Well, you are wrong again. No trainable person is going to consider you "forced" to vaccinate when you've described your education, employment and finances in the ways that you have. Nope.
The fact that you can simply get another source of income as a health professional makes your claim of "forced" vaccinating sound silly. You are willing to suffer job loss and that financial impact for emotional rather than logical or scientifically sound reasons. No one is forcing you to do anything. You are making choices which may impact your options...take credit.
My arguments are not just for myself but for others who may feel the same and be even more economically vulnerable. I would also argue that just because I "can" get another job should not mean that I should be forced to do so. I have at least ten patients who are also students at the University of Washington and they were told "vaccinate or you cannot return to school". Also, you make no distinction between those who have been infected and thus have IGG antibodies for Covid. In most cases even required vaccinations (such as Rubella) can be avoided without proof of previous vaccination if you have blood drawn and can demonstrate antibody immunity. I see no indication from your posts that you even consider such a differential scenario in your analysis.
Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.
No, Myoglobin, I see it differently.
I've been supportive of ANA 's Nursing Scope of Practice defined in nursing throughout my 45 year career:
Quote
The Nursing Scope and Standards of Practice describe the “who,” “what,” “where,” “when,” “why,” and “how” of nursing practice:
Who: Registered Nurses (RN) and Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRN) comprise the “who” constituency and have been educated, titled, and maintain active licensure to practice nursing.
What: Nursing is the protection, promotion, and optimization of health and abilities; prevention of illness and injury; facilitation of healing; alleviation of suffering through the diagnosis and treatment of human response; and advocacy in the care of individuals, families, groups, communities, and populations.
Where: Wherever there is a patient in need of care.
When: Whenever there is a need for nursing knowledge, compassion, and expertise.
Why: The profession exists to achieve the most positive patient outcomes in keeping with nursing’s social contract and obligation to society.
Entering my nursing progams (LPN, 76, BSN79) I was required to provide proof I had received vaccinations or had childhood illness + titters --- so I would not be at high risk of transmitting an illness to a patient as a nursing student. . As vaccines have been developed, I've received DPT, Tetorifice, yearly Flu, Hepatits B, COVID -19, and Shingles vaccines -- in keeping with PREVENTION of illness to myself and spread to others.
Additionally, I educate my Home Health clients on the need for vaccinations to prevent own and family spread using scientific sources ( from my health system, CDC, family physician, etc.). Ran the flu immunization program at my office location for years -- those who had prior serious vaccine reactions, contraindications, and documented religious objections were vaccine exempt. With lots of education to staff using CDC info, staff having no serious reactions --along with Tootsie Pop treat post the shot. had 95% vaccine acceptance rate out of 120 staff within 3 years.
And during this pandemic, my obligation to society as a whole was to get my COVID vaccine--along with my Adult sons --who easily understood best way to get over this pandemic and resume future maskless life AND prevent death in our family and community --especially with newborns, children and older adults on our block.
Many visitors considering nursing post here re need for vaccines and how to get around it. Our members response has usually been: consider another career as immunizations PART OF NURSING itself.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
32 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
My arguments are not just for myself but for others who may feel the same and be even more economically vulnerable. I would also argue that just because I "can" get another job should not mean that I should be forced to do so. I have at least ten patients who are also students at the University of Washington and they were told "vaccinate or you cannot return to school". Also, you make no distinction between those who have been infected and thus have IGG antibodies for Covid. In most cases even required vaccinations (such as Rubella) can be avoided without proof of previous vaccination if you have blood drawn and can demonstrate antibody immunity. I see no indication from your posts that you even consider such a differential scenario in your analysis.
You aren't being forced to get another job, you just don't want to fulfill the employment requirements of the employer.
Now all of a sudden you want to start litigating a proof of immunity and how health employers do that and they long have. If you don't want the varicella vaccine or the Hep B vaccine and want to work with vulnerable populations, you'd be required to show an adequate titer. It seems odd that you don't know this already.
Yeah, if your student patients aren't willing to vaccinate then, yeah they might have to choose a campus that doesn't care about the covid risk for the students or community. The question is will they be encouraged by you, their health professional to vaccinate...seems dubious that they would get that advice. Since your "arguments" are apparently also for them I wonder how you counsel on vaccination during a pandemic.
You aren't being forced to get another job, you just don't want to fulfill the employment requirements of the employer.
Now all of a sudden you want to start litigating a proof of immunity and how health employers do that and they long have. If you don't want the varicella vaccine or the Hep B vaccine and want to work with vulnerable populations, you'd be required to show an adequate titer. It seems odd that you don't know this already.
Yeah, if your student patients aren't willing to vaccinate then, yeah they might have to choose a campus that doesn't care about the covid risk for the students or community. The question is will they be encouraged by you, their health professional to vaccinate...seems dubious that they would get that advice. Since your "arguments" are apparently also for them I wonder how you counsel on vaccination during a pandemic.
With all due respect do you truly not understand my point? With most required vaccinations (even for nursing school) you had the option of either demonstrating previous vaccination via records or having titers drawn to demonstrate that you had resistance. Why would a similar option not be allowed for Covid? You seem to support requiring vaccination even if you have been previously infected for a vaccine that is still only authorized for emergency use. You have not problems requiring students (none of whom are even in health care) to be required to have vaccinations. Why stop there? With your line of reasoning the government should be able to require proof of vaccination to enter a store, cross state lines, leave your house? What line will you endorse drawing and on what basis will you say "enough" (if there indeed is such a line). Can you not see that such an attitude is a short road to a Chinese like Orwellian nightmare?
Entering my nursing progams (LPN, 76, BSN79) I was required to provide proof I had received vaccinations or had childhood illness + titters --- so I would not be at high risk of transmitting an illness to a patient as a nursing student. . As vaccines have been developed, I've received DPT, Tetorifice, yearly Flu, Hepatits B, COVID -19, and Shingles vaccines -- in keeping with PREVENTION of illness to myself and spread to others.
Additionally, I educate my Home Health clients on the need for vaccinations to prevent own and family spread using scientific sources ( from my health system, CDC, family physician, etc.). Ran the flu immunization program at my office location for years -- those who had prior serious vaccine reactions, contraindications, and documented religious objections were vaccine exempt. With lots of education to staff using CDC info, staff having no serious reactions --along with Tootsie Pop treat post the shot. had 95% vaccine acceptance rate out of 120 staff within 3 years.
And during this pandemic, my obligation to society as a whole was to get my COVID vaccine--along with my Adult sons --who easily understood best way to get over this pandemic and resume future maskless life AND prevent death in our family and community --especially with newborns, children and older adults on our block.
Many visitors considering nursing post here re need for vaccines and how to get around it. Our members response has usually been: consider another career as immunizations PART OF NURSING itself.
My school offered the option of either showing proof of vaccination OR titers. Also we had the option to "opt out" on the basis of a religious statement. No hospital that I have ever worked at required vaccinations. HCA did require that you either receive that influenza vaccine or wear a mask during flu season. Even the ANA also says the following : ANA strongly recommends that registered nurses be vaccinated against COVID-19. However, we recognize that without a well-established safety profile, the risk benefit analysis could be such that nurses choose not to be vaccinated. We do not believe nurses should be retaliated against if they do not choose to be vaccinated.
toomuchbaloney
16,046 Posts
Sure.
The evidence says otherwise relative to logic. Again with making this personal and about you. Your comments here do not reflect logical thinking with a reasonable risk to benefit analysis of the data about covid vaccines and no one is being forced to vaccinate. Let's drop the anxious emotions and fear mongering and talk about patriotic duty to country, duty to our patients and community as we struggle to get through this unprecedented pandemic, shall we? Because insisting that people are being forced to vaccinate with vaccines that you believe appear to be unsafe is simply nonsense.