Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up.
Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.
Umm..Wouldn't "this oppressive government" figure out WHERE the guns are, WHO has them and use different tactics?
I don't know about that London. What about camouflage nets and stealth caves. They communicate with Morse code and smoke signals and no one will know what they are doing! ??????
Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.
Understand vaccine hesitancy since new virus with vaccine quickly developed along with using using MRNA technology. But vaccines are part of American life preventing infectious disease spread and serious complications. Many are required to attend elementary/high schools, colleges and healthcare careers.
Nurses have a responsibility to be up-to-date on recommended routine vaccines. An immunization promotes optimal health and protects patients and the community from vaccine preventable diseases. Nurses work in environments where they are exposed to many communicable diseases and infections, so it's especially important to have the following vaccines:
Seasonal Influenza - get your influenza vaccine every fall!
Tetorifice, Diphtheria, and Pertussis (Tdap) - especially for nurses working with newborn or compromised infants
Measles, Mumps, and Rubella
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Meningococcal - CDC recommends one dose if you are often exposed to isolates of N. meningitidis
I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that you are in any position to speak for anyone beyond yourself. You have no authority or expertise to conclude that neither side wants to share laws, that's simply your hyperbole again. This notion that the USA should be dissolved is dangerous and is not relevant to this thread.
I am sharing discussions among mostly "fellow nurses" in the Southern United States many of whom feel much more adamant about the vaccination than myself. The only expertise required under the First Amendment is that I be a United States citizen to share an opinion. Thankfully, I am not required to be an "expert" to do so . Having said that I have over 300 undergraduate, 80 graduate and 12 years experience as a healthcare professional in a variety of settings and 100's of clients rely upon me for their health care needs.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
30 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
I am sharing discussions among mostly "fellow nurses" in the Southern United States many of whom feel much more adamant about the vaccination than myself. The only expertise required under the First Amendment is that I be a United States citizen to share an opinion. Thankfully, I am not required to be an "expert" to do so . Having said that I have over 300 undergraduate, 80 graduate and 12 years experience as a healthcare professional in a variety of settings and 100's of clients rely upon me for their health care needs.
Your "opinion" was a broad generalization that is not accepted as fact. You don't get to decide what one side or another wants relative to laws or shared "approaches"...you get to decide and speak for yourself.
Again, you are welcome to your opinion but opinions are not above question or scrutiny and they are sometimes wrong.
...According to the Kaiser poll, employee vaccination rates were 66% in hospitals, 50% in nursing homes and assisted living facilities, and 26% in home health. About 12% of those polled said they were undecided about shots and 18% did not want one.
The American Health Care Association and LeadingAge, which represent senior residential care providers, have said they want 75% of staff vaccinated by the end of June....
...(Philadelphia) Area health systems reported higher numbers than the Kaiser poll among hospital workers. The percentage vaccinated stands at 76% at Temple University Health System, 72% at Einstein Healthcare Network, 71% at Main Line Health, 70% at Penn Medicine, 68% at Jefferson Health (73% at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital), and 63% at Virtua.
Jaya Aysola, a Penn physician who helps plan Penn’s vaccination program, said the system’s rates are growing by 1 to 2 percentage points a week. Catherine Hughes, Virtua’s chief nursing officer, said its rate is growing by a point every two weeks.
In long-term care centers, residents were enthusiastic early adopters. Vaccination rates of 90% and above are routine. But Adam Marles, president and CEO of Leading Age PA, said many facilities report employee vaccination rates of 50% to 60%.
Genesis HealthCare SNF facilities here generally reported rates in the mid-60s to mid-70s on their websites....
It was meant to be a joke. The implication was that anyone willing to even "talk" to someone like me is probably not representative of the overall body of health professionals even at the facility that I am referencing. Therefore the data may be of limited value.
Keep in mind you will need lots of guns to get us there since many of us are quite well armed. and will not go without a fight. Honestly, at this point I just wish that Texas, Florida and a few others states that mostly see it from a liberty perspective could just leave the union and let those who wish to live under authoritarian rule do so. We could do it our way and you could do it your way. I would even be happy to not leave the state.
You have a perverse view of what Liberty means, particularly in the context of the "inalienable" natural rights the founding fathers intended to establish and protect.
"Liberty" doesn't refer to ensuring that you, Myoglobin, and only you have unlimited protection to pursue your personal whims, which in your case appears to be promoting demonstrably false misinformation about various aspects of Covid and vaccines, and just generally reckless anti-social behavior and views.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "forced vaccination" you're suggesting you would counter with violence includes any situations where your refusal of the vaccine may have consequences, this may include not employed to care for high risk individuals, or not being allowed to travel on 'vaccinated flights', which is an example of how 'vaccine passports' may be used.
Attempting to perpetuate a pandemic through misinformation and maintaining your ability to spread and propagate the disease by threatening violence against measures intended to mitigate those things is what tyranny is, you aren't who the founding fathers were looking to protect, you're who they were protecting us from.
You have a perverse view of what Liberty means, particularly in the context of the "inalienable" natural rights the founding fathers intended to establish and protect.
"Liberty" doesn't refer to ensuring that you, Myoglobin, and only you have unlimited protection to pursue your personal whims, which in your case appears to be promoting demonstrably false misinformation about various aspects of Covid and vaccines, and just generally reckless anti-social behavior and views.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "forced vaccination" you're suggesting you would counter with violence includes any situations where your refusal of the vaccine may have consequences, this may include not employed to care for high risk individuals, or not being allowed to travel on 'vaccinated flights', which is an example of how 'vaccine passports' may be used.
Attempting to perpetuate a pandemic through misinformation and maintaining your ability to spread and propagate the disease by threatening violence against measures intended to mitigate those things is what tyranny is, you aren't who the founding fathers were looking to protect, you're who they were protecting us from.
Who said anything about violence? I advocate the use of civil protest and disobedience. I do believe that the right to decline vaccination, travel, and work are fundamental rights protected by our Constitution (as well as other rights). I also believe that the vaccine(s) have both risks as well as benefits but for most people (especially those over 60) the benefits outweigh the risks. However, the decision to vaccinate or not should be a personal one. I also believe that testing for active infection and antibodies prior to vaccination (first and second dose) could mitigate risk of reactions even further. This is especially the case given that these vaccines are authorized under "emergency use" rather than the traditional process.
Who said anything about violence? I advocate the use of civil protest and disobedience.
Your statement seemed pretty clear, maybe you could clarify.
52 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Keep in mind you will need lots of guns to get us there since many of us are quite well armed. and will not go without a fight.
52 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
I do believe that the right to decline vaccination, travel, and work are fundamental rights protected by our Constitution (as well as other rights). I also believe that the vaccine(s) have both risks as well as benefits but for most people (especially those over 60) the benefits outweigh the risks. However, the decision to vaccinate or not should be a personal one. I also believe that testing for active infection and antibodies prior to vaccination (first and second dose) could mitigate risk of reactions even further. This is especially the case given that these vaccines are authorized under "emergency use" rather than the traditional process.
You could certainly argue those would fall under fundamental rights, but the problem is that those rights don't solely belong to you. Your rights aren't unlimited where they impose on the rights of others.
If, for instance, an airline wants to recognize their customer's right to both the pursuit of happiness (travelling) and life by abiding by a significant preference to choose flights that are for vaccinated individual only, then showing up at the ticket counter and demanding to be let on the flight at gunpoint isn't really protecting the overall rights of society.
Whether or not to get vaccinated is a personal decision in that it's only up to you to decide if the lack of choices or restrictions you might face to reduce how much you infringe on the rights of others is worth it. It's not a personal choice in that it only affects you however.
Whether the presence of antibodies is a relative or absolute contraindication to getting vaccinated has been studied and no benefit was found to delaying vaccination in those with detectable antibodies, I'm not sure what you're suggesting the benefit might be.
Your statement seemed pretty clear, maybe you could clarify.
You could certainly argue those would fall under fundamental rights, but the problem is that those rights don't solely belong to you. Your rights aren't unlimited where they impose on the rights of others.
If, for instance, an airline wants to recognize their customer's right to both the pursuit of happiness (travelling) and life by abiding by a significant preference to choose flights that are for vaccinated individual only, then showing up at the ticket counter and demanding to be let on the flight at gunpoint isn't really protecting the overall rights of society.
Whether or not to get vaccinated is a personal decision in that it's only up to you to decide if the lack of choices or restrictions you might face to reduce how much you infringe on the rights of others is worth it. It's not a personal choice in that it only affects you however.
Whether the presence of antibodies is a relative or absolute contraindication to getting vaccinated has been studied and no benefit was found to delaying vaccination in those with detectable antibodies, I'm not sure what you're suggesting the benefit might be.
I doubt airline travel would rise to the level of being "constitutionally" protected. However, travel by foot or car probably would. Also states like Florida and Texas have already passed laws prohibiting "vaccine passports".
Also, when we have experts basically saying that every death that occurred after a Covid vaccine on VAERS is not related to the vaccine (over 2000) while at the same time asserting that virtually every death of an infected person (with Covid) is related to the virus does not breed great trust in the expert opinion. Rather, it causes me to conclude that they are considering "public reaction" rather than "just the facts". Much as Dr. Fauci admitted he did when he originally said (last March?) that everyone didn't need to wear a face mask (he was concerned that if people ran out and purchased all the masks there wouldn't be enough for health care workers a worthy sentiment but not one that justifies distorting the facts as you understand them).
Again, without regard to what I think it is my firm opinion that once you get to about 50% vaccinated (of the general public) that you will find that almost nothing pushes that number North of that figure especially in "Red" states. Perhaps, I'm wrong, but I would bet what little I have on this fact.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
I doubt airline travel would rise to the level of being "constitutionally" protected. However, travel by foot or car probably would. Also states like Florida and Texas have already passed laws prohibiting "vaccine passports".
Also, when we have experts basically saying that every death that occurred after a Covid vaccine on VAERS is not related to the vaccine (over 2000) while at the same time asserting that virtually every death of an infected person (with Covid) is related to the virus does not breed great trust in the expert opinion. Rather, it causes me to conclude that they are considering "public reaction" rather than "just the facts". Much as Dr. Fauci admitted he did when he originally said (last March?) that everyone didn't need to wear a face mask (he was concerned that if people ran out and purchased all the masks there wouldn't be enough for health care workers a worthy sentiment but not one that justifies distorting the facts as you understand them).
Again, without regard to what I think it is my firm opinion that once you get to about 50% vaccinated (of the general public) that you will find that almost nothing pushes that number North of that figure especially in "Red" states. Perhaps, I'm wrong, but I would bet what little I have on this fact.
Your paranoia and distrust of US public health experts is noted, well documented in this thread in fact.
If only 50% of the population accepts vaccination then the unvaccinated population will continue to incubate and spread the virus, increasing the probability of more variants. Those who refuse vaccination will be the people who potentially get sick or die from covid 19. It's unclear to me why the political leadership and residents of "red states" are choosing that slow and expensive pathway.
Why aren't you clarifying those comments which referenced guns...you know, like Muno asked?
Your paranoia and distrust of US public health experts is noted, well documented in this thread in fact.
If only 50% of the population accepts vaccination then the unvaccinated population will continue to incubate and spread the virus, increasing the probability of more variants. Those who refuse vaccination will be the people who potentially get sick or die from covid 19. It's unclear to me why the political leadership and residents of "red states" are choosing that slow and expensive pathway.
Why aren't you clarifying those comments which referenced guns...you know, like Muno asked?
I simply don't understand how you can accept that "none" of the over 2000 deaths reported in the VAERS data is related to Covid 19 immunizations while at the same time accepting reasoning that almost everyone who dies (and is Covid positive) is considered to perish from Covid. It simply is not intellectually honest.
I am not sure what is to clarify. If you are speaking of these comments they speak for themselves: Someone said:
AR10’s” as in plural? Why would you need multiple battle rifles? Seriously, why? If for home defense, nowhere near as good a choice as a shotgun. If for hunting, I guess they work if you need to fire multiple rounds quickly to bring down your target as opposed to using say a winchester model 70 bolt action.
And correct me if I’m wrong but you used the fbi means of homicide report, I don’t recollect cars being on that list as a tool for homicide. So ahh, whatchu talkin’ ‘bout willis?
To which I responded:
AR'15's are a good investment. Some of the one's that I paid $500.00 for a few years ago are worth over 2k today. Ammo that I paid less than 10cents per round is now selling well over a dollar per round. AR15's make a good hunting rifle in a "grid down" SHTF scenario as well. Cars are often used as weapons just look at the police officer killed recently at the capital or the Uber driver who died during a recent carjacking by a couple of teenagers. Most of my "social" group have far more guns/ammo than me as I got a "late start". We love guns and see them as an integral part of a free nation.
The problem with clarifying these comments is that it leads back to a deviation from discussion about the vaccines which the moderators have cautioned us to stay within. Still I will address your clarification request.
Guns are legal and protected under the Second Amendment, a good investment and a necessary component for free peoples. What you call "battle rifles" I call the most popular sporting rifle in the United States (a statistical fact)
. I disagree the vaccination is the "only" way to herd immunity. Infection and subsequent antibodies should be at least equivalent, but at a greater cost in lives. Certainly, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine produces an immune response more similar to actual infection rather than the mRNA approach. I am pro vaccine, I just believe they should be voluntary. Again so long as we agree that they should be voluntary we are in agreement.
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I don't know about that London. What about camouflage nets and stealth caves. They communicate with Morse code and smoke signals and no one will know what they are doing! ??????