I am taking classes towards my BSN because like other nurses with a diploma or ADN I am being "forced" to return to school for my BSN. I have had my ADN for 9 years. My question is HOW is statistics, critical inquiry, and the other classes going to make me a better nurse? Isn't hands on training the best way to learn? I feel like they are requiring BSN now and in 10 years want MSN so that we wont need doctors working on the floors, because nurses will do their own orders!!
I am 42 y/o and rally don't want to do this, but I have a minimum of 23 years left of working and had to be forced to stay where I am due to not having a BSN. Sure they say we may be "grandfathered" in, but that limits us to stay put.
Anyone have any input on this, as to what am I going to learn getting my BSN and why the requirement now?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
In one post you want people to spend big money for the MSN.
No I didn't. You have made that up.
Now you are saying it is not worth it.
Not exactly.
In your MSN post you take about taking the shortest possible route to get an end result yet you complain about autonomy declining.
I see that once again, as you have so often done in other discussions, you have chosen to misrepresent what others are saying. In other threads you have decided to progress from simply misrepresenting others comments to outright lies about what we have said.
I honestly do not know if you have a reading comprehension problem, or you are making a deliberate choice when you misrepresent the words of others.
I think you might be thinking of Excelsior,but those are Lpn's who go work on their Adn Online.
I might be wrong though,but their work experience is counted as their clinical time.
Paramedics can also take the program right after receiving their cert. This is a very easy way for a Paramedic to get to RN. It is definitely shorter than any "bridge" program.
Some BSN programs are wonderful and great and teach you lots of useful stuff and critical thinking and intelligent things you'll put into practice every day.
Some BSN programs are useless, stupid, full of fluff and tedium, and you'll learn nothing that enriches your practice as a nurse.
Some people can make a learning experience out of any program, be receptive to and take something positive away from it.
Some people are cranky and refuse to see any merit in any program because they have crappy attitudes and are bitter.
**** No matter what the situation, attitude or quality of the program, guess what? ****
I work in Private Duty and want to until retirement(33 years away)
Do you guys recommend an ADN who doesn't want to work in acute care still get a Bsn?
Trust me,there are lots of nurses who don't want to work in acute care at ALL.
I do want to add something I see a lot.
It seems nurses in acute care regardless of degree think they are smarter than nurses who don't work in acute care settings.
My friend who has a Bsn and only works private duty tells me all the time that when she comes across Adn nurses who work in acute care they try to talk down to her even though her degree is higher.
It seems nurses measure ourselves by experience rather than education.
In your later post on this thread you mentioned that you never got to do any "hands on skills" in clinicals. Did you have an orientation and a preceptor in your private duty job?
Being competent at providing hands on care to patients, i.e. performing nursing procedures correctly, using the nursing process, is very important if one is providing actual patient care. When you say "It seems nurses measure ourselves by experience rather than by education" it gives me the impression that you do not understand how important being clinically competent is when you are providing care to patients.
The fact that the powers that be have not taken this rout, haven't even advocated for this route, indicates to me that increasing the percentage of BSN prepared RNs with the eventual goal of an all BSN RN workforce is NOT the real motivation of the ANA, AACN, IOM and other stake holders.
Arguing for increasing the investment for the individual nurse at a time when nurse compensation (see the recent wage surveys here on AN) AND autonomy (see the various scripting threads on AN) are on the decline seems folly to me.
Increasing the level of degree required SHOULD bring about increasing compensation and increasing autonomy for the RN. That is not doing so begs the question why are we doing this? Are we deliberately attempting to make nursing a less attractive occupation? If so why?
The fallacies here are illustrative, to my mind, about why more didactic material in nursing school would be beneficial to the profession as a whole. It is clear that someone who doesn't think ADN/ASN and BSN education are different could have benefited from this.
First, the surveys on AN are for entertainment purposes only. Don't believe me, just go to the thread on the validity of the survey monkeys being promulgated here as real research on behalf of "master's capstones" from a notorious for-profit "nursing program." You will see that declaration from the AN administration just before they closed the thread.
Second, You make no argument as to how the ANA, AACN, and the IOCM directly benefit from there being a better-educated workforce. I will grant you that as professional nursing organizations they recognize that the research shows decreased mortality and morbidity in hospitals with a higher level of education in the nursing service. But I would hope that my professional organizations would stand behind that concept.
Third, with the advent of the ACA and a big increase in need for primary care providers, already being felt in several quarters (see the APRN forum for some anecdotal evidence of that), there will be more, not less opportunity for autonomous practice. The rise in legal nursing (defined by the ANA as legal nurse consulting, case management, and nurse life care planning) is also testament to increased autonomous roles for RNs outside the hospital arena. These positions are definitely better compensated when you look at hours, shift differential vs. self-scheduling (worth more than money in my practice), and other freedoms.
Last, language matters in argument. In the immortal words of "The Princess Bride" character Fezzig, played by the late lamented Andre the Giant, regarding your use of "beg the question," "I do not think that means what you think it means." It doesn't. You, however, do beg the question in your arguments.
[h=3]What is "Begging the Question?" (Beg The Question // Get it right.)[/h]"Begging the question" is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself. When one begs the question, the initial assumption of a statement is treated as already proven without any logic to show why the statement is true in the first place.
A simple example would be "I think he is unattractive because he is ugly." The adjective "ugly" does not explain why the subject is "unattractive" -- they virtually amount to the same subjective meaning, and the proof is merely a restatement of the premise. The sentence has begged the question.
[h=3]What is it Not.[/h]To beg the question does not mean "to raise the question." (e.g. "It begs the question, why is he so dumb?") (or, in your case, "That is not doing so begs the question why are we doing this?") This is a common error of usage made by those who mistake the word "question" in the phrase to refer to a literal question. Sadly, the error has grown more and more common with time, such that even journalists, advertisers, and major mass media entities have fallen prey to "BTQ Abuse."
While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage.
1) my autonomy and compensation INCREASED once I got my BSN, just my experience; autonomy is relative to the practicing nurse; this is coming from a person who was an LPN first, and looked into the positives of going into a BSN program which was more accessible and in the same amount of time as the ADN.
2) Let's the shoe; rather the course, fit for the person: ADN was full time; opposed to the part time BSN program; giving me a work life balance; option to have more clinical hours and experiences; I couldn't trade that away for price and the same amount of time for a degree that if I choose to want to become an educator or an NP, I would have to still come off money to get the bachelors in the first place. My BSN education was excellent and a good fit for me; I have experienced an ADN program in the past before I got my PN education; and it hasn't change in year when I was looking into the program; adding credits while taking nursing courses was not a good option due to my learning strategy-not taking strictly nursing courses to fulfill full time status is FAR more a waste of money-since I had all of the required pre-req's , however that is the required fulfillment; I had nursing courses and the same-actually MORE credit hours with the focus in the major, not needing to fulfill a requirement I did not need was a HUGE rational reason to go for my BSN; the focus on the major credit hours, with a work-life balance.
That is to say what worked for me, as well as my education expanded my practice; granted I had nursing experience in a state where the nursing practice for an LPN is pretty expanded, except for the verbiage of "assessment" ahem, data collection; worked on committees and developed a preceptorship program and created policies for a facility, ALL as an LPN; so the roles that what an RN could have, I've done-however, I can do MUCH better due to my nursing education.
Now, there does need to be true nursing education reform; it will have to take participation form those skittish medical centers to not think nursing students are a liability (VERY THANKFUL that that has not been my experience), collaborations with community colleges and universities (something successfully in place in my area) as well as instead of scoffing at the "powers may be", you may need to hold the nose and cuddle up to them, network, go enough to the tip to make the change that is needed and out the actual footprint in making nursing programs stronger, and a EXCELLENT transition to practice and Novice to Expert pathway for all nurses; a collaborative effort for nurses BY nurses. Until then, NOTHING is going to change, and they way out business is being handled, WE CAN BE a part of; there are many that are a part of the process as we speak; more is needed to make the changes WE NEED for the success of our profession, including stemming the flow of new students and start up for profit programs.
I hear the word "autonomy" thrown out a lot. What kind of autonomy do people think nurses are going to get?
If you think autonomy only means being able to prescribe the medical plan of care, you aren't appreciating the fullness of our role. Our assessments, since we are at bedside 24/7, influences the medical plan of care. Our independent nursing interventions can often prevent deconditioning, DVTs, hospital acquired pneumonia, bowel problems, nutrition, hydration, functional recovery, aspiration, decubitus ulcers and noncompliance with meds, to name a few. Just imagine the difference between two patients of the same age with the same diagnosis and similar medical plans of care, but one patient has a nurse who doesn't address these issues and one patient has a nurse who does. The difference may startle you.
ETA: If you are referring to autonomy differences between and ADN and a BSN, I don't know if there is a difference, and my response doesn't address that. Sorry if I misunderstood the context of your question.
You are wrong. No BoN is going to accept LPN-level clinical practice for RN-equivalent clinical hours.
No,I'm right.
You can check out their program.
At the end of the program,they do have to go to one of four testing centers to pass the two day clinical testing;if they pass,they are awarded an Adn. They can then sit for boards in most states.
In your later post on this thread you mentioned that you never got to do any "hands on skills" in clinicals. Did you have an orientation and a preceptor in your private duty job?
Being competent at providing hands on care to patients, i.e. performing nursing procedures correctly, using the nursing process, is very important if one is providing actual patient care. When you say "It seems nurses measure ourselves by experience rather than by education" it gives me the impression that you do not understand how important being clinically competent is when you are providing care to patients.
Its important to be clinically competent.
I did get to do some things during clinicals,but IV's were hands off.
My professor had 10 students in clinicals,and she could not supervise us all.
Also,per hospital policy,we were not allowed to do certain things like start IV's.
Of course,I do get to do nursing skills on my job.
Anyone can learn a clinical skill. I have seen Cna's in a southern state start IV's and insert Foley's.
In other words,I'm trying to say are skills aren't unique to us alone.
You are wrong. No BoN is going to accept LPN-level clinical practice for RN-equivalent clinical hours.
Hi GrnTea,
Excelsior graduate here. I had to prove to my BON (Georgia) that I had the minimum of 5400 acute care clinical hours within the immediate three-year period prior to ASN enrollment or else be subjected to 350-700 preceptorship hours (depending on the area) after passing the NCLEX and prior to receiving a permanent RN license. Fortunately for me, I had been a med/surg LPN for a solid 8 years by the time I took the NCLEX-RN.:yes:So, I didn't have to do any. But I did have to fight with them to become exempt because they initially wanted me to do 700 precept hours as though I had NO nursing experience whatsoever, regardless of what they had IN WRITING on the BON website. Here in Georgia, they will not accept LPN clinical experience as appropriate for RN permanent licensure if the only clinical experience is night shift in a nursing home (the last time I checked)...additional requirements are assigned to other LPN areas like doctors offices, home health, etc...
smartnurse1982
1,775 Posts
I think you might be thinking of Excelsior,but those are Lpn's who go work on their Adn Online.
I might be wrong though,but their work experience is counted as their clinical time.