I am taking classes towards my BSN because like other nurses with a diploma or ADN I am being "forced" to return to school for my BSN. I have had my ADN for 9 years. My question is HOW is statistics, critical inquiry, and the other classes going to make me a better nurse? Isn't hands on training the best way to learn? I feel like they are requiring BSN now and in 10 years want MSN so that we wont need doctors working on the floors, because nurses will do their own orders!!
I am 42 y/o and rally don't want to do this, but I have a minimum of 23 years left of working and had to be forced to stay where I am due to not having a BSN. Sure they say we may be "grandfathered" in, but that limits us to stay put.
Anyone have any input on this, as to what am I going to learn getting my BSN and why the requirement now?
I was 44 years old when, after 24 years as an LPN, the economic changes forced me to pursue the ASN. I received my RN license at the age of 45. As soon as that was done, the health system that I worked for performed a survey to see just how many RNs were in possession of a BSN. Assuming what they were up, I kinda found myself taking another course by the end of the same year in which I graduated and passed the NCLEX. The hospital had not issued any particular demands or suggestions. And as old as I believed myself to be when I returned for the ASN, I realized that I was nowhere CLOSE to retirement age. I was, however, aware of current trends and pushes by way of the grapevine;). (Didn't learn about how to check things out for the 'official' word until I started the BSN pursuit).
After analyzing the situation, I deduced that the BSN 'infection' would reach my location, maybe not now but definitely before I was able/ready to retire; and the longer I put off the eventual inevitable, the older I was going to be when that mandatory state arrived. So, while it was my choice and NOT a requirement, I began my casual pursuit towards the infamous BSN.
That started in late 2010, with one course or test-out exam sporadically. I think i took one course and two test-out exams in 2011. I did nothing in 2012 as far as academics because of personal reasons and....it was still my choice. In March of 2013, I made the decision to go ahead and finish what I started....no need dragging it out forever. Now, I am one course away from completing this degree and, believe it or not, it is still my choice. If I haven't learned anything else throughout my pursuit, I must say that I have learned how to 'listen' differently and to ask the question 'says who' when presented with information, as well as to state, 'well, according to the _____, blah, blah, blah...'. The look on the faces of some when I respond like that is PRICELESS! So in essence, I've learned how to argue my point of view.
My little FYI to all not-a-fan-of-schoolers such as myself, acquiring further education is so much easier and actually interesting if it's initiated prior to being mandated.
Obviously if it were actually important that nurses have a BSN they would simply declare a date after which a BSN is required to take the NCLEX, all the ADNs would be grandfathered in and we would have an constantly increasing percentage of BSN nurses.
This is the path taken by all of the other health fields that required a more advanced degree.
PMFB-RN:
I don't often agree with your thoughts on BSN education, but here we sing the same song. This would stop the squabbling and allow us to focus that energy on increasing the quality of nursing education period.
If I haven't learned anything else throughout my pursuit, I must say that I have learned how to 'listen' differently and to ask the question 'says who' when presented with information, as well as to state, 'well, according to the _____, blah, blah, blah...'. The look on the faces of some when I respond like that is PRICELESS! So in essence, I've learned how to argue my point of view.
^^^^this^^^^
I've read a lot of arguments about the uselessness of BSN (versus ADN) education. Acquiring the skill above is so valuable, not only in increasing one's confidence but also in increasing inter-professional respect.
And I know I've read on this thread people arguing that they read the research, keep up on the journals and don't need BSN education to teach them that. For that I applaud them. My reality was that I read nothing more complicated than RN (sorry if that offends but I'm talking about myself here!). It was way complicated, I didn't understand the numbers, graphs and half the research terms. The majority of my fellow ADN coworkers have expressed similar thoughts (though I believe more recent grads are getting more education in this).
Learning this skill is reminiscent of when I originally learned to read in 1st grade. A bit of a chore, and since then, no one has been able to pry a book from my hands, I can't get enough, the world opened up to me.
And here I go with another post; but I think it's better chopped up rather than one long ole post.
What was my main motivation? My hospital was one of the few local hospitals still hiring ADNs into my area (NICU). I was hearing nurses with my background who upon finding themselves unexpectedly back in the job market were being given very few choices if they wanted to continue to work in this specialty. Now I had/have no plans to change jobs, but I'm not stupid and I know things change.
Previously, my ADN was never an impediment to my career goals (as long as I stayed out of management) but the situation was and is changing. I also thought I best get back into school before my brain gets any older, and my lord, did I ever feel how much my brain had aged in twenty years. But it would have been that much more difficult in 10 years and I still have a couple of decades of career left.
To the OP; I hear your frustration, and I echoed your thoughts just a couple of years ago. I was prepared for a total "hoop-jumping" experience. And it can be that, or you can extract an enriching experience from it and improve your practice. A few of my fellow students were brave enough to state in our final course how they had not seen any benefit and we were all able to detect that students had slipped through having acquired little to no knowledge (or at least the skills to communicate that).
That was not my experience.
I got excited just a few courses in and it pulled me through some of the more trying courses. Very early in, I found myself changing my personal practice for the better and opening myself up to more engaged relationships with the patients (or parents rather in my case). I understood management more (still didn't like them), understood and bought into new best practices, and shared this new knowledge with my coworkers.
Not my skills, skills stayed the same, but my practice overall improved.
I teach in an RN-to-BSN program, & I am taking issue with your comments. First of all, all papers have very specific grading rubrics, which takes subjectivity out of the grading process. Writing a paper about a subject requires a much higher degree of knowledge than the rote memorization required to pass an exam. I went from a 2-year degree to a BSN to an MSN to a DNP, and I learned a great deal with every degree I earned.
If on your rubric, let's say APA is worth 2 points. How do you personally deduct points for APA mistakes? Probably different than the next person. What 1 professor will take a 1/4 point for, the next person might take 1 point for.
I understand what you're saying but the reality is, the couple papers I did in my ADN program didn't deserve D's but I took a Professor that's hates writing as much as me and I think I lost 1 point total on each paper and that's subjective.
I don't want to be at mercy of a "stickler" for useless busy work and that's what ADN-BSN programs pretty much are.
Now, I am one course away from completing this degree and, believe it or not, it is still my choice. If I haven't learned anything else throughout my pursuit, I must say that I have learned how to 'listen' differently and to ask the question 'says who' when presented with information, as well as to state, 'well, according to the _____, blah, blah, blah...'. The look on the faces of some when I respond like that is PRICELESS! So in essence, I've learned how to argue my point of view.
:rckn:
Oh, if I could like this a hundred times, I would. This is the essence of what more education is all about, how to use it in actual work settings, and why we should care that more nurses acquire it.
I got excited just a few courses in and it pulled me through some of the more trying courses. Very early in, I found myself changing my personal practice for the better and opening myself up to more engaged relationships with the patients (or parents rather in my case). I understood management more (still didn't like them), understood and bought into new best practices, and shared this new knowledge with my coworkers.
Not my skills, skills stayed the same, but my practice overall improved.
Just my experience.
I hope more people on the "I don't need more education, we're all RNs, we all have the same license and the same job" boat will read these two posts and seriously reconsider the limitations they aren't seeing in that old chestnut.
(And I am not talking to the ones who want to learn more but life gets in the way (cough-cough, my friend OCN)
(Hmmm, have no idea how I got tinted into being the OP in this thread. Oh, well.)
Some BSN programs are wonderful and great and teach you lots of useful stuff and critical thinking and intelligent things you'll put into practice every day.
Some BSN programs are useless, stupid, full of fluff and tedium, and you'll learn nothing that enriches your practice as a nurse.
Some people can make a learning experience out of any program, be receptive to and take something positive away from it.
Some people are cranky and refuse to see any merit in any program because they have crappy attitudes and are bitter.
**** No matter what the situation, attitude or quality of the program, guess what? ****
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
This post does an excellent job of making the argument that less education works better for the individual nurse, not that patient or the profession.
Your point depends on an assumption that I do not accept. While it is true that a BSN is a higher degree than an ADN, I do not believe, and have not seen any evidence that an ADN is less education than a BSN, or at least not enough education to matter on way or the other.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
PMFB-RN:
I don't often agree with your thoughts on BSN education, but here we sing the same song. This would stop the squabbling and allow us to focus that energy on increasing the quality of nursing education period.
The fact that the powers that be have not taken this rout, haven't even advocated for this route, indicates to me that increasing the percentage of BSN prepared RNs with the eventual goal of an all BSN RN workforce is NOT the real motivation of the ANA, AACN, IOM and other stake holders.
Arguing for increasing the investment for the individual nurse at a time when nurse compensation (see the recent wage surveys here on AN) AND autonomy (see the various scripting threads on AN) are on the decline seems folly to me.
Increasing the level of degree required SHOULD bring about increasing compensation and increasing autonomy for the RN. That is not doing so begs the question why are we doing this? Are we deliberately attempting to make nursing a less attractive occupation? If so why?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Some BSN programs are wonderful and great and teach you lots of useful stuff and critical thinking and intelligent things you'll put into practice every day.
Some BSN programs are useless, stupid, full of fluff and tedium, and you'll learn nothing that enriches your practice as a nurse.
Some people can make a learning experience out of any program, be receptive to and take something positive away from it.
Some people are cranky and refuse to see any merit in any program because they have crappy attitudes and are bitter.
**** No matter what the situation, attitude or quality of the program, guess what? ****
YOU WILL STILL NEED TO GET THE BSN!!!!!!
Haha! TOO BAD!!!!!!
Nobody needs to get a BSN. The is nothing a nurse with a BSN can accomplish that the same nurse with an MSN couldn't/ As a person who is in a position to advise student nurses and recent grads I no longer recommend that any of the get a BSN. I think a reasonable argument can be made that the BSN is rapidly becoming obsolete.
Now that an ADN RN can earn a MSN in about 44 credits in two years from real universities what is the point of the BSN?
Nobody needs to get a BSN. The is nothing a nurse with a BSN can accomplish that the same nurse with an MSN couldn't/ As a person who is in a position to advise student nurses and recent grads I no longer recommend that any of the get a BSN. I think a reasonable argument can be made that the BSN is rapidly becoming obsolete. Now that an ADN RN can earn a MSN in about 44 credits in two years from real universities what is the point of the BSN?
I don't know where you live.... Where I live it is nearly impossible for ADN's to get a job in an acute care hospital. I believe this would be the point of a BSN. What is the point of a bunch of MSN's that have never taken care of acute care patients?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I don't know where you live.... Where I live it is nearly impossible for ADN's to get a job in an acute care hospital. I believe this would be the point of a BSN. What is the point of a bunch of MSN's that have never taken care of acute care patients?
Of course the ADN grad isn't going to be able to get a job in a hospital is lots of areas. I have to say that non of my ADN students over the last 2-3 year have had trouble getting acute care jobs in our area, but I know it isn't like that everywhere.
As for your what is the point comment. If I were you I would address that to all the direct entry MSN programs out there. They take people off the street who have a degree in something, charge them graduate level tuition for a basic nursing education that other schools are selling for under grade rates, and graduating brand new RN MSN's unqualified for anything except entry level RN jobs.
Lets think about this for a second. Two high school grads want to become RNs. Tom's parents are pretty wealthy so he can enroll in his local university's BSN program and Bob, since his parents barely make enough money to get by, enrolls in the local community college ADN. Two years later Bob graduates from nursing school and goes to work in a hospital. using one of the benefits of his job he enrolls in a two year long RN to MSN program.
Two years later, a total of 4 years since they both started nursing school, Tom is a brand new grad with his BSN in hand. He gets hired at the same hospital as Bob, but Bob is now Bob, RN, MSN, and has two solid years of nursing experience under his belt, probably has his CCRN or other certification, plus Bob got paid round $120K over the last two years and was able to pay off the small student loans he took out for nursing school. Bob is well set up to apply for assistant nurse manager jobs, or other non bedside jobs like education, QI and others. Or he could apply to CRNA or NP school if his two years experience were in ICU.
How is Tom going to feel about this situation? Do you think Tom might regret the BSN path he took? Might there be some resentment on Tom's part? Maybe not, since both were recent high school graduates Tom had one heck of a lot of fun drinking and chasing girls at the university that Bob missed out on at the community college.
Now we quite simply can not have things like this happening to our University BSN grads. Something must be done. What is being done is that nurses like Bob won't be hired and thus can not make Tom regret all the partying err I mean hard work he put in at the university BSN program.
So in essence, I've learned how to argue my point of view.
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NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN
2,690 Posts
I was 44 years old when, after 24 years as an LPN, the economic changes forced me to pursue the ASN. I received my RN license at the age of 45. As soon as that was done, the health system that I worked for performed a survey to see just how many RNs were in possession of a BSN. Assuming what they were up, I kinda found myself taking another course by the end of the same year in which I graduated and passed the NCLEX. The hospital had not issued any particular demands or suggestions. And as old as I believed myself to be when I returned for the ASN, I realized that I was nowhere CLOSE to retirement age. I was, however, aware of current trends and pushes by way of the grapevine;). (Didn't learn about how to check things out for the 'official' word until I started the BSN pursuit).
After analyzing the situation, I deduced that the BSN 'infection' would reach my location, maybe not now but definitely before I was able/ready to retire; and the longer I put off the eventual inevitable, the older I was going to be when that mandatory state arrived. So, while it was my choice and NOT a requirement, I began my casual pursuit towards the infamous BSN.
That started in late 2010, with one course or test-out exam sporadically. I think i took one course and two test-out exams in 2011. I did nothing in 2012 as far as academics because of personal reasons and....it was still my choice. In March of 2013, I made the decision to go ahead and finish what I started....no need dragging it out forever. Now, I am one course away from completing this degree and, believe it or not, it is still my choice. If I haven't learned anything else throughout my pursuit, I must say that I have learned how to 'listen' differently and to ask the question 'says who' when presented with information, as well as to state, 'well, according to the _____, blah, blah, blah...'. The look on the faces of some when I respond like that is PRICELESS!
So in essence, I've learned how to argue my point of view.
My little FYI to all not-a-fan-of-schoolers such as myself, acquiring further education is so much easier and actually interesting if it's initiated prior to being mandated.