WHY do I need a BSN?

[AnnMarie52471]

I am taking classes towards my BSN because like other nurses with a diploma or ADN I am being "forced" to return to school for my BSN. I have had my ADN for 9 years. My question is HOW is statistics, critical inquiry, and the other classes going to make me a better nurse? Isn't hands on training the best way to learn? I feel like they are requiring BSN now and in 10 years want MSN so that we wont need doctors working on the floors, because nurses will do their own orders!!

I am 42 y/o and rally don't want to do this, but I have a minimum of 23 years left of working and had to be forced to stay where I am due to not having a BSN. Sure they say we may be "grandfathered" in, but that limits us to stay put.

Anyone have any input on this, as to what am I going to learn getting my BSN and why the requirement now?

[lub dub]

Papers are graded subjectively and if you get the wrong Professor then bam! I don't write papers. I want to read and take tests as do many people. Come up with that and I'm in.

I teach in an RN-to-BSN program, & I am taking issue with your comments. First of all, all papers have very specific grading rubrics, which takes subjectivity out of the grading process. Writing a paper about a subject requires a much higher degree of knowledge than the rote memorization required to pass an exam. I went from a 2-year degree to a BSN to an MSN to a DNP, and I learned a great deal with every degree I earned.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

In my experience, Paramedics are taught there scope is an MD's right hand. Which is wrong and dangerous on a number of levels.

And we have nothing to fight them with. WE know that it's dangerous. But what do we know compared to the physicians? Who is a legislator going to listen to? Nurses or doctors? I guarantee they'll listen to the physicians, and they physicians will be ALL FOR giving more power to a group they have control over (EMTs) instead of a group with their own independent boards (nurses).

So what's to stop EMTs from taking over what nurses are doing now? As long as we talk about our profession as being "skill-based" we'll lose on that front. They do have more skills. Education-wise? Associate's degrees at most for us both.

Heck, they're already coming after us. Military medics returning from overseas are lobbying to be able to get nursing licenses without going to nursing school. They've got the skills!

Not just EMTs. Nursing assistants, medical assistants, anyone that has skills can take over.

Until we decide we're more than just people doing skills, and can PROVE IT by having educations that back up our critical thinking, LPNs and ADN RNs aren't going to be losing jobs because they don't have a BSN, they'll be losing jobs because EMTs and unlicensed personnel that can do the skills cheaper.

And no, reading journals doesn't cut it. Would you want your surgery performed by someone that watched a youtube video? They might do a perfectly fine job, but I want some proof they know what they're doing. Right now, that proof is their degree. Not just their licensing test. Those just make sure you learned the bare minimum while you were in school.

[Not_A_Hat_Person, RN]

I'm an RN with an ADN. I got a BA in English before I got an AS. I tried an online RN-BSN program, and ended up dropping out. Part of it was life changes, but I couldn't see how a BSN would benefit me, and my heart just wasn't in it. Employers in my area don't pay BSNs any more than ADNs. I managed to get out of the student debt trap, and I have no intention of ever going back.

I initially got my AS because I was seriously underemployed. With no financial help from anyone (except federal student loans), I could pay $7,000 for an AS, at least $15,000 for a direct-entry BSN, or at least $25,000 for a direct-entry MSN. I decided to take the cheapest available route, start working, then let my employer pay for a BSN. Of course, I graduated in 2008, just before the job market collapsed. It took 3 years to find an employer that offered a 401(k), never mind any kind of tuition assistance.

I keep up with changes in the field. I read articles, subscribe to a nursing journal, and attend seminars. One of my licenses requires CE credits for renewal. In the end, I had to wonder if spending $12,000 out-of-pocket for a BSN would be worth it if nothing else changed. The answer was no. The last thing I need is another expensive piece of paper.

Perhaps in a few years I will feel different about continuing my nursing education. I've looked into RN-MSN programs, trying to find one that isn't hideously expensive and will allow part-time study. For now, I have other uses for my time and limited funds than yet another pretty piece of paper. Higher Education has become a racket.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

The number 1 thing I hear from ADN's in a BSN program is how much bull goes into writing paper after paper. The number 1 reason I hear for resistence to get a BSN which includes myself is they don't want to write papers.

Wahhh. I know someone getting a bachelor's degree in math. Guess what! He's writing papers. You have to prove you can communicate. Sometimes via the written word. You have to prove you can find some information on your own when needed. And synthesize it. Papers work for that.

Many ADN's got their ADN and then a B.S. in another field or like me, I got a B.S. then got my ADN. I need to work now, not go back to school and that's how a lot of people feel.

It was your idea to get a BS in another field before nursing. If you changed your mind and decided to become a physician or pharmacist, you'd have to get the minimum degree to do those jobs. I can't say, "I already have a PhD in French Literature, so I should only have to spend a couple years in school now to become a physician. I need to work!"

[PMFB-RN, RN]

As nurses, we should be committed to the spirit of scientific inquiry, critical thinking and all that stuff, right? We call it 'evidence based practice. Well, there is now a sufficient amount of compelling evidence that increased numbers of BSN nurses make a significant positive difference in clinical outcomes in acute care settings. American Association of Colleges of Nursing | Creating a More Highly Qualified Nursing Workforce I haven't come across any information that extends this finding to non-acute care environments.

It's not compelling to me. All of the studies I have seen were seriously flawed and did not show what they are claimed to show.

Health care is increasingly complex. It's only logical that the educational preparation of clinical professionals has to keep pace.

I agree 100%. However BSN programs simply do not provide preparation for an increasingly complex health care environment.

Since our professional regulators (BONs) are largely silent on this issue, employers have stepped up and adopted the IOM recommendations -

j

IOM (eyes roll). The IOM seriously lacks credibility. We are talking about the same IOM that is STILL spewing false propaganda about the supposed nursing shortage?

The reason the OP has to go to school is jealousy and resentment of ADN nurses. A certain kind of nurse, like many found in leadership positions in the ANA and AACN, seek to punish anyone who had the gall to enter nursing without having invested the same amount of time an money that they did. It's not good enough to actually work towards a BSN prepared RN workforce.

Obviously if it were actually important that nurses have a BSN they would simply declare a date after which a BSN is required to take the NCLEX, all the ADNs would be grandfathered in and we would have an constantly increasing percentage of BSN nurses.

This is the path taken by all of the other health fields that required a more advanced degree.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Wahhh. I know someone getting a bachelor's degree in math. Guess what! He's writing papers. You have to prove you can communicate. Sometimes via the written word. You have to prove you can find some information on your own when needed. And synthesize it. Papers work for that.

Maybe, but they are a poor substitute for actual education.

It was your idea to get a BS in another field before nursing. If you changed your mind and decided to become a physician or pharmacist, you'd have to get the minimum degree to do those jobs. I can't say, "I already have a PhD in French Literature, so I should only have to spend a couple years in school now to become a physician. I need to work!"

She DID get the minimum degree to do her job. if a BSN is actually required to be an RN then a BSN should be the minimum degree. Simple as that.

[ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP]

The number 1 thing I hear from ADN's in a BSN program is how much bull goes into writing paper after paper. The number 1 reasor resistence to get a BSN which includes myself is they don't want to write papers. I simply don't write papers, that's why I was not an English major for my 1st B.S. which touches on another issue. Many ADN's got their ADN and then a B.S. in another field or like me, I got a B.S. then got my ADN. I need to work now, not go back to school and that's how a lot of people feel.

A B.S. in sociology or math does not equate to a B.S. in NURSING.

And I find it quite pathetic that the reason you don't want to advance your education and career is your hatred of writing papers. Memorization and tests are for middle schoolers. In college, one is expected to perform and learn at a higher standard. You aren't just "writing papers" just like you aren't just "doing math problems"; you are exercising the brain in critical thinking and learning. For example, although philosophy majors aren't incredibly marketable, they typically outperform all other majors on the LSATs, a test that requires extremely high thought processes.

They need to come up with BSN completion programs that aren't writing a bunch of useless papers and I think people will be more receptive. You should see the comments I see posted on my friend's Facebook pages about how silly, busy, frustrating the work is they're doing in their BSN programs.[/]

With the exception of arts & humanities kinds of stuff, I can't think of other Bachelor's degrees that have you write paper after paper after paper after paper. It's ridiculous and it gives most people high anxiety. Papers are graded subjectively and if you get the wrong Professor then bam! I don't write papers. I want to read and take tests as do many people. Come up with that and I'm in.

This post makes me SO sad, and I don't mean it in a condescending way. There is so much more to learning than memorizing facts and taking test. Your whole post perpetuates the stereotype that ADN nurses don't value education. If you don't wish to advance yourself, then that is fine. But don't get angry when you don't get that transfer, raise or promotion while the colleague who DID make the investment experiences an entire world of opportunities that you will never see.

[Guest757854]

this post makes me so sad, and i don't mean it in a condescending way. There is so much more to learning than memorizing facts and taking test. Your whole post perpetuates the stereotype that adn nurses don't value education. If you don't wish to advance yourself, then that is fine. But don't get angry when you don't get that transfer, raise or promotion while the colleague who did make the investment experiences an entire world of opportunities that you will never see.

well said!!!! Bravo..... I totalky agree!!

[BostonFNP, APRN]

I tried an online RN-BSN program, and ended up dropping out.

I have other uses for my time and limited funds than yet another pretty piece of paper.

This post does an excellent job of making the argument that less education works better for the individual nurse, not that patient or the profession.

[TC3200]

I think that all of the dissing of diploma and AD RN nursing programs needs to stop. A lot of the opinions are based on old outdated curricula that haven't been taught in a couple of decades (we hope, LOL). It's impossible to paint every non-BS-degree RN with the same brush, because RN training programs have changed and evolved; they have not stayed stagnant. Today's diploma school is quite a bit different than the 1960s diploma school. Diploma and AD RN programs have changed immensely in order to stay competitive with the BS RN content, and to produce students who can pass the NCLEX-RN on the first try. It's insulting to call them inferior, imo.

1, One very IMPORTANT point that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that today's associate degree and diploma programs are essentially back to being 3-year programs, and are "associate degree" in name only. When you compare the actual HOURS of time spent in classroom, clinicals, and doing homework for the diploma and modern associate degree programs, both are far beyond what, say, an assoc degree in chemistry or accounting or art requires. A RN associate degree takes over someone's life for three years. So do most diploma schools. Ordinary assoc degree students have loads of free time to play, or party, or work full or part time, or spend time with their families. Or to work full time, go to school full time, AND spend time with family, AND sleep. Right?? Nursing programs = no free time. Anything you have, the program will suck up, and then it will take even more and have you running on 4-6 hours sleep per night and wanting to scream your head off because it's so. neverendingly. relentless. And stressful.

2. And many of the diploma and associate degree RNs nowadays are nontraditional students, or career changers, who, as others pointed out, already had other college degrees and/or work experience. So, I think that depending on the previous coursework and work experience of the students bridging from RN to BSRN, it might be entirely possible that they actually aren't learning much that is new to them. I've already had statistics and used 'em in my other career. I have had team-building stuff out the gazoo. I have real-life work experience in the work process changes and business metrics. Engineering and tech had all of that stuff first.

Today's associate degree and diploma schools in western PA are LOADED with science, and with work. We wrote papers in APA format and far too many of them, lol. We had all the patho theory. We learned pharma. The only real difference I see is that we were doing it in (depending on school) about 2.5-3 years and not 4. The diploma school grads that I know had no problems finding jobs within 6 months of graduation. Most, it didn't take more than a couple of months, and the top 1/4 of the class had employers looking for them before graduating. Most are currently working on their online state school RN to BSRN degree right now. I'll have to ask a few if they think it's really adding much to the education that they got at diploma RN school. But I think most would probably say "No, not much."

[TraumaSurfer]

1, One very IMPORTANT point that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that today's associate degree and diploma programs are essentially back to being 3-year programs, and are "associate degree" in name only. When you compare the actual HOURS of time spent in classroom, clinicals, and doing homework for the diploma and modern associate degree programs, both are far beyond what, say, an assoc degree in chemistry or accounting or art requires. A RN associate degree takes over someone's life for three years. So do most diploma schools. Ordinary assoc degree students have loads of free time to play, or party, or work full or part time, or spend time with their families. Or to work full time, go to school full time, AND spend time with family, AND sleep. Right?? Nursing programs = no free time. Anything you have, the program will suck up, and then it will take even more and have you running on 4-6 hours sleep per night and wanting to scream your head off because it's so. neverendingly. relentless. And stressful.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Today's associate degree and diploma schools in western PA are LOADED with science, and with work. We wrote papers in APA format and far too many of them, lol. We had all the patho theory. We learned pharma. The only real difference I see is that we were doing it in (depending on school) about 2.5-3 years and not 4. The diploma school grads that I know had no problems finding jobs within 6 months of graduation. Most, it didn't take more than a couple of months, and the top 1/4 of the class had employers looking for them before graduating. Most are currently working on their online state school RN to BSRN degree right now. I'll have to ask a few if they think it's really adding much to the education that they got at diploma RN school. But I think most would probably say "No, not much."

The problem is you can't really say "Associates degree but almost like a BSN" on a resume.

If they are really that close, why not go for the degree with the name "BSN" which carries more weight today?

Then, you would not have to spend 2 - 3 more years completing an RN to BSN degree. But, if the employers are happy with these RNs and their diplomas or Associates, why are the RNs enrolled in a BSN program especially if you don't think they will not get anything out of it?

The ability to find a job can be highly dependent on the geographical area. If that area only has one college and nothing else for miles or the hospital is partial to a particular school then employment might be likely. However, times are difficult today finding a job in just about any health care profession (except PT, OT and SLP).

Several of the Associates degree health care programs are full time with a year of prerequisites so nursing is not that unique.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

(In my personal experience , (forgive me please) my ADN was less than 10,000 and was only about 4 credits shy of being a BSN program...I know this because they had to be very very careful when the school adjusted curriculum because they were not accredited uh er "allowed" to run as a BSN program...but the multiple BSN programs offered in a 50 mile radius were atleast 40,000 to 80,000...my school also had the highest consistent NCLEX pass rate of 99% for our area not to mention the best employer/community reviews) !

Any ADN program that requires 116 semester hours is certainly an outlier in nursing education. Or it's possible that you've misunderstood what is required to earn a bachelor's degree, regardless of major. Because there are so many pathways to a BSN, no wonder people get confused!

I've written about this before, and I'll do it again. A bachelors degree requires at least 120 semester hours. Period. No less than that. Ever. All university majors require 60 hours of general education and 60 hours of major-focused education, including earning a BSN.

For individuals who have a bachelors degree in another field, the BSN program (usually referred to as an ABSN program) is only the 60 hours of nursing-focused education, not counting the pre-reqs that often need to be taken to meet the application requirements or to renew the credits of science classes taken more than five years prior to applying for the ABSN program. You do not have to "redo" your 60 hours Gen Ed, but you do have to prove you've earned them. In theory, someone who has never earned a bachelor's, but has a general studies associates degree, would also qualify for entry into an ABSN program because the gen ed requirements were met.

For people who have an ADN and are RNs, RN-to-BSN programs are NOT 60 hours long and they are not academically equivalent to ABSN programs. For RN-to-BSN programs, college credit--up to 30 semester hours--is given for work experience and the balance of the 60 required hours is coursework.