Why Do We Tolerate This?

[kmchugh]

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.

Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928

This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987

This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?

Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?

Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.

In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?

In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?

So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?

Kevin McHugh

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

Should a large breasted female nurse be forced to wear a t-shirt under scrubs so she doesn't flash those things at patients when she bends over?

Not that exact scenario, but a more similar--and a more common one--was addressed in the thread in which several nurses wanted to go back to wearing all white.

I still cannot forget the female coworker who wore a thong with see-through whites. She was proud of her butt and was basically "flashing" everyone, then bragged about it.

I don't think the workplace was the place to do that. JMHO. :angryfire

I'm not sure if the DON addressed that one, but another coworker complained to me that she'd been "spoken to" about wearing her Tweety unders with her white pants. *At least they were full-cut.*

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Mike, I'm not a total prude. Gay, str8, male and female we all cut up and joke around. I wouldn't want to work in an environment were people are afraid to kid around with one another.

In fact we were cutting up the other other night at work when I was trying to make the assignment on and I started dancing, which illicited comments "I love you're butt, and I'm so jealous I don't have a butt like yours. Yeah shake that thang." (I'm 45 and that I'm still getting comments on my butt is funny). The context was pure fun and I wouldn't for minute think otherwise.

However, if body contact was made by either male or female getting a handful, then I would object. Today, I'm older and wiser and while I probably wouldn't file a sexual harrasment suit, I would at least stand up for myself and let her know it's not appropriate to touch the goodies. :)

To answer your question, I let it slide by the female and I would more than likely have let it slide had it been a man, gay or str8. Back then I was a newbie nurse, shy and didn't know how to speak up for myself.

Yeah, a lot of times the difference between fun and harassment is familiarity. Old friends can get away with stuff new aquaintances shouldn't try. And I tend to agree, inappropriate touching is always inappropriate. If I wouldn't feel comfortable grabbing your butt, you probably shouldn't grab mine, either. Didn't mean at all to suggest you were being a prude--I'm sorry you were subjected to that, but I'm glad you seem to have it in perspective.

I'm still a student, so I have a lot of the lessons of a newbie nurse ahead of me, but I do notice I'm a lot better at speaking up for myself after 40 than I was when I was younger. You live, you learn.

A bit off topic, but one of the things I've found I enjoy about health care is the diversity of my co-workers. As a carpenter, I was in a pretty homogenous environment. In a hospital, you see life in all its madness, and patients to boot. Well, you can't boot the patients, even when they deserve it. But, still...

[SmilingBluEyes]

I have to get ready for work, and so will make this short.

Absolutely correct on all counts. I have not missed the fact that there have been a lot of female nurses on this board who have taken a stance in defense of their male counterparts. If that were the case, this would be a thread attacking female nurses for "allowing this," and that was not at all my intent. In fact, I think the majority of nurses, both male and female, tend to defend one another, and don't sweat the small stuff (which most of this is.)

Also, I did not intend this to be a thread where I was just venting, nor did I intend this to be a males only thread. I'm glad for participation from all comers.

The initial question I asked was why we (men in nursing) tolerate this. I believe that females, across the board, not just in nursing, have become quite good at recognizing when good natured fun crosses the line and becomes demeaning or degrading (a lot more experience is my theory). The question is why? Why are males so much more patient in tolerating behavior that skirts, and even crosses the line?

And to a degree, I still think there is a double standard. The chest hair thread proves it. Many of you (Tweety included) said they didn't see the thread as all that big a deal (and neither do I), but no one has even tried to respond to my hypothetical thread in which the tables are turned. Should a large breasted female nurse be forced to wear a t-shirt under scrubs so she doesn't flash those things at patients when she bends over? And if that thread is OK, is it OK for me to come in and say I don't want her wearing a t-shirt, I want a chance to get a peek? And to further state that if that occurs, I might just forget about the "nurse-patient" relationship? If that were to have been how events unfolded, would you all still be saying that it isn't a big deal?

Really, in the end, this thread was meant as not much more than food for thought, and maybe as fodder for discussion for all of us. I'm glad it has provided that. (So much for keeping it short.)

Kevin McHugh

I respect your question, Kev. I hear you.

I often wonder why we, male and female in nursing, tolerate a LOT of things, like abusive physicians, poor working conditions, unsafe patient-nurse ratios, and failure to advocate for our patients by colleagues----as well as many other things--- it goes on and on. Why is it, nursing tolerates so much when we as a group could be powerful enough to effect SO MUCH POSITIVE CHANGE? Why is it, we bicker among ourselves about things that are not make-or-break to our profession, yet leave things that are "broken" unfixed???????

[rogramjet]

Very well put.

[ADONLTC]

Truthfully, I'm not offended by either of these two issues.

What does offend me is this: I am NOT a male nurse... I'm a NURSE. Plain, simple and to the point. We don't talk about women as "that female nurse", why am I called a male nurse?

[rogramjet]

When people call me a "Male nurse", I just politley correct them and tell them nicely that I am a "Registered Nurse". I have no problem being called a nurse, just don't qualify it with the term "Male". I went through the same classes the females did and took the same NCLEX. I earned the title.

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

What does offend me is this: I am NOT a male nurse... I'm a NURSE. Plain, simple and to the point. We don't talk about women as "that female nurse", why am I called a male nurse?

Perhaps for the same reason that this is The Male Nursing Forum, yet, there is no "Female Nursing Forum"????????????????????

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

Perhaps for the same reason that this is The Male Nursing Forum, yet, there is no "Female Nursing Forum"????????????????????

:chuckle :chuckle :chuckle :chuckle

[ADONLTC]

Perhaps for the same reason that this is The Male Nursing Forum, yet, there is no "Female Nursing Forum"????????????????????

For a long time men were not accepted as nurses (even though nursing at one time was only a male profession). Being a male in the nursing profession today does present challenges. I see the need for a forum on "Issues for men in nurisng" but not "The Male Nursing Forum"

[mattsmom81]

Why is it, we bicker among ourselves about things that are not make-or-break to our profession, yet leave things that are "broken" unfixed???????

Do we major in minors, because that is all we can effect change in as nurses? After all, we have little power or control to make 'big' changes, as we are not the big' players.

Is the sniping and bickering a desperate attempt by a powerless group to try to control SOMETHING, if only each other?

I've often wondered the same thing Deb. We would have SOOO much power...IF we would only stick together.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

I respect your question, Kev. I hear you.

I often wonder why we, male and female in nursing, tolerate a LOT of things, like abusive physicians, poor working conditions, unsafe patient-nurse ratios, and failure to advocate for our patients by colleagues----as well as many other things--- it goes on and on. Why is it, nursing tolerates so much when we as a group could be powerful enough to effect SO MUCH POSITIVE CHANGE? Why is it, we bicker among ourselves about things that are not make-or-break to our profession, yet leave things that are "broken" unfixed???????

Food for thought.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Perhaps for the same reason that this is The Male Nursing Forum, yet, there is no "Female Nursing Forum"????????????????????

Exactly! Also the same reason we don't celebrate White History Month. It's our turn, at last, to be the downtrodden minority, so there!

Er, well, that's just weird, isn't it? Come to think of it, it would feel pretty odd to describe someone as a black nurse, or a tall nurse.

I used to see ads for a contracting company run by a mother and her daughters. I imagine they were referred to as lady carpenters more than a few times.

People do speak of "male nurses" as if that were a specialty, like ER nurse or pediatric nurse. Might partly go back to male nurses in psych, in the bad old days, when "guard" would have been more accurate.

Still, I've been happily male for as long as I can remember, and looking forward to being a nurse in the very near future--assuming I get back to studying for my maternity test soon (all things considered, I would rather be taking a paternity test, but there it is).

For the record, most nurses I know just say I'm a nursing student, when they speak of it. "Male" only gets mentioned when it's relevant, as in, "The male students will change downstairs, in the OR dressing room." Or, "Would you mind if a male student observed your delivery?"

At this point, you can call me a fat nurse, if you want to. As long as I can graduate and pass the boards.