Why Do We Tolerate This?

[kmchugh]

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.

Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928

This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987

This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?

Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?

Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.

In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?

In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?

So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?

Kevin McHugh

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Deb, I'm going to edit my post and erase what I initially said, which was basically a repeat and rewording of stuff I've already said in this thread.

I apologize for missing the point that you were saying there isn't a double standard.

And no, I certainly haven't missed the fact that 99.99999% of the nurses here, you especially, are supportive of male nurses.

I think myself and a couple of aren't communicating well, and aren't understanding each other and missing the point of what each other is saying. But I'm not going to spend a lot of time getting defensive as I've put enough two cents into it and I'd only be repeating myself.

You're last paragraph is disappointing. You've never been shy about speaking your mind. Why start now? :rotfl:

[Liddle Noodnik]

I do believe my female-ness to a certain extent makes me blind in some instances as to what may be offensive to males. I appreciate anytime another perspective is offered :).

Absolutely. I for one am very sorry for my own double standard.

We need to remember though that sexual harrassment applies if the behavior is "unwanted". The only way we know if something is "unwanted" is if someone says so.

However, there is or should be standard and professional behavior that we all understand and adhere to.

I keep thinking about Tweety and his getting thwacked on the bottom. How demeaning! Now if I knew someone well AND we were not working the floor, in that context it MIGHT be appropriate to do this jokingly. But then wouldn't I feel violated if he turned around and did the same thing to ME, or groped my chest?

We DO need to try to see ourselves from the viewpoint of the other person.

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

Hey,

Are we not getting just a little out of hand with this thread and the the other one which is running along a similar lines.

Remember nobody can assume from the written word exactly what is meant because there is no intonation or stress with the written word.

Why dont we all agree to differ until the next time.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

madwife2002, while I agree sometimes we have to agree to differ, and that it's difficult to presume what the written word means, I disagree that it's gotten out of hand. I think it's been a good conversation.

Zoe, I can't believe I allowed that person to do what she did and just took it. What I wonder though is if I grabbed a handful of a female coworkers butt cheek and said the same thing, would my coworkers just laugh and agree, the way they did with me. Or would I get in trouble? That things like this have happened to females for eons doesn't make it o.k. It was a long time ago, and I was a totally different person than I am now.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Deb, I'm going to edit my post and erase what I initially said, which was basically a repeat and rewording of stuff I've already said in this thread.

I apologize for missing the point that you were saying there isn't a double standard.

And no, I certainly haven't missed the fact that 99.99999% of the nurses here, you especially, are supportive of male nurses.

I think myself and a couple of aren't communicating well, and aren't understanding each other and missing the point of what each other is saying. But I'm not going to spend a lot of time getting defensive as I've put enough two cents into it and I'd only be repeating myself.

You're last paragraph is disappointing. You've never been shy about speaking your mind. Why start now? :rotfl:

Because I realize I am sort of "crashing" a men's forum here. And I have ZERO desire to suppress their need to vent here, safely and w/o fear of my coming in here and "crashing" the scene. I guess I want to respect that sometimes people need to VENT and are not asking us to FIX it all. Does that make sense, my friend?

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Deb, that does make sense. Often we are just looking for an ear, not an answer. I just hope I didn't make you feel bad for participating.

The question was to the men, and the question to myself was "why do we tolerate this?", not that we're unique or it doesn't happen to women, or that women are unsupportive. But why we as men let things slide. I asked myself that question over and over again in the years since the "buns" incident. It was definately my "maleness" that kept my mouth shut. Anyway, enough of that.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Deb, that does make sense. Often we are just looking for an ear, not an answer. I just hope I didn't make you feel bad for participating.

The question was to the men, and the question to myself was "why do we tolerate this?", not that we're unique or it doesn't happen to women, or that women are unsupportive. But why we as men let things slide. I asked myself that question over and over again in the years since the "buns" incident. It was definately my "maleness" that kept my mouth shut. Anyway, enough of that.

How to ask this without trolling...? I wonder if the offender in the "buns" incident had been another man--would you have let it slide? I know plenty of guys who would go berserk, and I would probably object pretty vocally, myself.

I've been pinched or goosed by female co-workers a time or two, although, it the context, it wasn't nearly as offensive as your mishap. Sounds weird, I suppose, but I suspect we can all agree that a certain amount of bumping butts and whatnot takes place entirely innocent in the course of an average week, and if such an occassion is punctuated by a playful pat or pinch...well, er, I would never have considered touching a co-worker like that, but still, I didn't feel harassed.

I do have several gay co-workers (of either gender) and there are times when inappropriate remarks occur between straights and gays, though generally without offense. In one case, a lesbian co-worker overheard a male friend and me commenting on a couple of unusually cute EMT's we had just seen, and agreed with us. Other times, gay men have made mildly flirtatious comments to straight guys they knew wouldn't object, and I once invited a guy I worked with to accompany me to a party as my "date". I am sure we both understood the quotation marks were there, and we were good enough friends for the joke, so no harm, no foul.

Anyway, I guess I'm mainly reiterating that even when a behavior is actually offensive (as opposed to one that could be offensive, but only if the victim was offended), it's a bit easier to bear when it isn't threatening, as well. When a man is the offender, one might not be as confident of being able to ward off further offenses, and so more apt to speak up.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Mike, I'm not a total prude. Gay, str8, male and female we all cut up and joke around. I wouldn't want to work in an environment were people are afraid to kid around with one another.

In fact we were cutting up the other other night at work when I was trying to make the assignment on and I started dancing, which illicited comments "I love you're butt, and I'm so jealous I don't have a butt like yours. Yeah shake that thang." (I'm 45 and that I'm still getting comments on my butt is funny). The context was pure fun and I wouldn't for minute think otherwise.

However, if body contact was made by either male or female getting a handful, then I would object. Today, I'm older and wiser and while I probably wouldn't file a sexual harrasment suit, I would at least stand up for myself and let her know it's not appropriate to touch the goodies. :)

To answer your question, I let it slide by the female and I would more than likely have let it slide had it been a man, gay or str8. Back then I was a newbie nurse, shy and didn't know how to speak up for myself.

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

I would at least stand up for myself and let her know it's not appropriate to touch the goodies.

Mmmmm what can one say except all the female nurses who are feeling males nurses 'goodies' on duty have to be desperate, I wouldn't lower myself nor my professionalism.

:roll

[Liddle Noodnik]

madwife2002, while I agree sometimes we have to agree to differ, and that it's difficult to presume what the written word means, I disagree that it's gotten out of hand. I think it's been a good conversation.

Zoe, I can't believe I allowed that person to do what she did and just took it. What I wonder though is if I grabbed a handful of a female coworkers butt cheek and said the same thing, would my coworkers just laugh and agree, the way they did with me. Or would I get in trouble? That things like this have happened to females for eons doesn't make it o.k. It was a long time ago, and I was a totally different person than I am now.

You're right, it DOESN"T make it ok just because female nurses have had to deal with it for forever.

I can't remember, was this person a woman you had just met in a professional setting?

Gawd, if it had been me I would have been SOOOO embarrassed - especially if I'd been unable to say anything (and yeah, that was me when I was younger).

I would bet Tweety that you would have had hell to pay if you had done this to a woman.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

You're right, it DOESN"T make it ok just because female nurses have had to deal with it for forever.

I can't remember, was this person a woman you had just met in a professional setting?

Gawd, if it had been me I would have been SOOOO embarrassed - especially if I'd been unable to say anything (and yeah, that was me when I was younger).

I would bet Tweety that you would have had hell to pay if you had done this to a woman.

This was a coworker, an RN, and it was in the nurses station. We'd worked together for a few months, I think, but she definately didn't know me well enough to do this.

[kmchugh]

I have to get ready for work, and so will make this short.

And no, I certainly haven't missed the fact that 99.99999% of the nurses here, you especially, are supportive of male nurses.

I think myself and a couple of aren't communicating well, and aren't understanding each other and missing the point of what each other is saying.

Absolutely correct on all counts. I have not missed the fact that there have been a lot of female nurses on this board who have taken a stance in defense of their male counterparts. If that were the case, this would be a thread attacking female nurses for "allowing this," and that was not at all my intent. In fact, I think the majority of nurses, both male and female, tend to defend one another, and don't sweat the small stuff (which most of this is.)

Also, I did not intend this to be a thread where I was just venting, nor did I intend this to be a males only thread. I'm glad for participation from all comers.

The initial question I asked was why we (men in nursing) tolerate this. I believe that females, across the board, not just in nursing, have become quite good at recognizing when good natured fun crosses the line and becomes demeaning or degrading (a lot more experience is my theory). The question is why? Why are males so much more patient in tolerating behavior that skirts, and even crosses the line?

And to a degree, I still think there is a double standard. The chest hair thread proves it. Many of you (Tweety included) said they didn't see the thread as all that big a deal (and neither do I), but no one has even tried to respond to my hypothetical thread in which the tables are turned. Should a large breasted female nurse be forced to wear a t-shirt under scrubs so she doesn't flash those things at patients when she bends over? And if that thread is OK, is it OK for me to come in and say I don't want her wearing a t-shirt, I want a chance to get a peek? And to further state that if that occurs, I might just forget about the "nurse-patient" relationship? If that were to have been how events unfolded, would you all still be saying that it isn't a big deal?

Really, in the end, this thread was meant as not much more than food for thought, and maybe as fodder for discussion for all of us. I'm glad it has provided that. (So much for keeping it short.)

Kevin McHugh