Why Do We Tolerate This?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Mar 10, 2005

I quite frankly could care less about different forums. I am the one that wishes to get rid of the "isms" that divide Nursing. And quite frankly, having separate forums for every little group merely works to promote "isms" that should be done away with.
We tend to gripe and whine to our own little group, saying how put upon we are, "unlike all other groups...and not a darn constructive thing comes from it......much like the Republicans and the Democrats that never cross lines, perpetually destroying any hope of consensus and unity. If we are forced to work with others not of our ken, we might actually accomplish unity, something Nursing vitally needs.
And the Christian /nonChristian forum issue has been beaten to death like the dead horse that it is, and the separate forum idea denounced soundly, as it should be.

Points very well taken.

I wasn't too keen on a separate forum, but objected to the idea that it would be devisive. But I'm reconsidering that.

I too wish people could come together for common good and not separate into groups and "isms".

I also acknowledge that groups like to meet together to celebrate diversity and common bonds. Not just because they feel "put upon". It happens in society as well. Take AA for instance, there are gay groups, smoking groups, women's groups, and men groups, but they all are focused on the idea of working the 12 steps to stay sober. Churches have singles groups, couples groups, etc.

It would be nice to have groups within nursing such as male and female nurses come together, med-surg nurses and ICU nurses, BSN and ADNs, LPNs and RNs, etc. There's much to do and power together.

So I'm torn. I see the way separateness divides, and I see how it brings together. Thanks for your input.

kmchugh · Mar 10, 2005

AND YOU THINK THAT SORT OF BIAS ONLY OCCURS WITH MEN AND OB!!!!!!!!!!!!! And doesn't occur similarly with any of the groups that I cited. Where have you been hiding from the real world? It occurs daily and with many groups other than men and other than OB. Maybe it hasn't gone to court yet, but it certainly occurs.

Yes, Caroline, but this forum deals specifically with issues men in nursing have to deal with, and thank you for making the point so nicely. Throughout the nursing profession, that sort of bias DOES only occur with males. I have actually given this some thought today, and sincerely cannot think of a single job in nursing you would be barred from simply because you are a female. However, I graduated nursing school in 1997, and since then have met the managers of at least two OB units who openly stated that they would not hire male RN's because they were firmly convinced that nurses who happened to be male did not belong in OB under any circumstances. (I never applied for a job in OB, but had discussions with both managers as either a SRNA or CRNA.) One was at a very large hospital with over 1000 deliveries per year, the other at a smaller hospital. One of these managers went so far as to say that she would (and had) worked her unit short staffed rather than accept a float nurse, if that nurse was male. This same manager said that she knew her position could be overturned in a court, but that she would resign before having a male work his first day in "her" unit. I challenge you to name a position in nursing where women would face a similar situation. On a more personal level, I nearly quit nursing school because MY OB instructor was firmly convinced that males did not only not belong as nurses in OB, but that they did not belong in nursing, period. She said exactly that to a class of students that was all female.

Still, at least one response to the potentially offensive thread about chest hair seemed to say we ought to have a sense of humor about it. I'm actually more offended by that than the thread, itself, although "offended" is too strong a word. Mildly piqued? I don't know. Bemused, maybe.

Thank you, exactly my point. "Have a sense of humor about it" is strictly verboten as a deflection for men who make similar comments. You cannot have your cake and eat it too seems to be a cliché that applies nicely here.

Kevin McHugh

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Mar 11, 2005

So go into those threads that are offending your sensibilities and say something about...and defend your point.

I have done so, even though often it has me going against the tide of public opinion and the so called majority. That's what works for me. And frequently, posters are not happy about it but it is what people that truly believe in a cause or an idea do.

But when you make a statement (as in your OP), "this wouldn't tolerated if it was reversed and about women" when it most certainly has been tolerated on this BB....some of us are going to call you on it.

When a poster complains about "I am a nurse, not a male nurse but a nurse" and does it in a ""male nurse forum", it works against his point.

When posters say that men need special forum but ignore that there are many special groups that get dealt with bias that manage to handle things in a public forum...well it shows a certain bias.

If you have a problem with chest hair comments, why not post these statements on the offending thread? (note:as I haven't read it, I don't know whether anyone posted any comments about the bias). That is where it will do the most good.

Feel free to PM me, if you have more to say

_________________________________________________________________

Could we get back to thread at hand??????

Tweety, BSN, RN · Mar 11, 2005

removed by myself. Changed my mind. Sorry.

been there · Mar 17, 2005

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.
Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928
This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?
https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987
This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?
Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?
Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.
In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?
In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?
So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?
Kevin McHugh

Kevin I apologize for all of those who posted "cutsey" remarks. Most, I'm sure, are from very young persons who have never been exposed to the real world before nursing school. I feel male nurses look at the sexuality of the patient as 1) this is a female so I insert the catheter..... 2) this is a male so this time I insert the catheter a different way, etc,etc. I have worked with many males over the past 20 years and have only noted one to have a problem with his libido but he did contain it to the female CNAs who were willing. This guy was caught in the act and lost his license, the CNAs lost their certification. The others were professional and very very good at their profession. In some cases it was best to have a male nurse handle a difficult male patient. My salute to you guys and thank goodness you have begun to join us. As to the hairy chest issue.....a tee shirt would really be preferable but don't forget some females who lean over too far when doing vitals and expose themselves all the way to their waist!! Looks like some have forgotten this irritating problem with the way scrubs are made. Any comment from the staff about a hairy chest is tantamount to remarking about a nurse's protruding teeth.....it may unknowingly hurt the recipient. It did me and I'll never forget the nurse who said it. You guys are doing a great job.

LPNer · Mar 19, 2005

I've been reading these posts for a few days now and have but one question guys.

If I agree that it's ok to show your chest hair will you turn around and walk away? I wanna see a nice looking butt!

Oh, I do apologize. But darn! I just can't believe that anyone would have a problem with hair!

I don't understand the male nurse forum either, but there's a lot of things I don't understand and their are a lot of "special interest" forums. Though I have been working with nurses who happen to be men since my graduation in 1977, men are still the minority and have "issues" and concerns that are different from women.

Keep your forum goiong guys and don't let a few feminists hold you down! Just don't forget to turn those nice butts in my direction once in awhile! :wink2:

Oh come on, you have to admit you look at boobs and/or butts too.

scooterRN52 · Mar 21, 2005

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.
Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928
This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?
https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987
This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?
Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?
Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.
In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?
In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?
So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?
Kevin McHugh

I am a female and I wouldn't tolerate those remarks, they sound like they came from an unprofessional and immature person! I have worked w/ many

male nurses and never observed any behavior from them that would indicate that sort of image. I've been a nurse for i6 years and have worked in many hospitals and nursing homes. :rotfl:

greensleeves · Mar 21, 2005

[

Keep your forum goiong guys and don't let a few feminists hold you down! Just don't forget to turn those nice butts in my direction once in awhile! :wink2:

Oh come on, you have to admit you look at boobs and/or butts too

**************************************************

Thank you LPNer. I believe this was the point I was trying to make, from a female patient's point of view. I agree with you, I don't think it is possible for men to just turn off the male gene.

Your honesty is refreshing.

Dixielee, BSN, RN · Mar 21, 2005

As a female who has worked with a lot of male nurses, I too, find the accusations offensive to men. The OP assumes men have only animal urges and can't control themselves. That stereotype is to men as the ones of the female nurse with the spiked white heels, short white dress and over done make up. Nurses are quick to try to quell those ads that depict women nurses that way.

I do have a question of the men though. We have lots of male nurses on staff in our ER, and a good mixture of male and female physicians. It still seems that the female nurse, or tech is the one to assist in pelvic exams even if the doctor is female. I have also been asked by a male physician to accompany him when he does a rectal on a female, and not have the male RN go with him if it is his patient. That seems to reinforce this same stereotype, that if 2 men go into a room with a vulnerable female, then they must have sexual thoughts about her! How do you do things where you work? I don't mind being the chaparone, but it seems like a double standard.

Years ago a non nurse friend asked me if my husband ever got jealous because I was "around so many naked men". I told her that he knew that most of the member' I saw, had a foley hanging out of them! Somehow that just doesn't evoke any passionate feelings at all! :coollook:

LPNer · Mar 21, 2005

As a female who has worked with a lot of male nurses, I too, find the accusations offensive to men. The OP assumes men have only animal urges and can't control themselves. That stereotype is to men as the ones of the female nurse with the spiked white heels, short white dress and over done make up. Nurses are quick to try to quell those ads that depict women nurses that way.
I do have a question of the men though. We have lots of male nurses on staff in our ER, and a good mixture of male and female physicians. It still seems that the female nurse, or tech is the one to assist in pelvic exams even if the doctor is female. I have also been asked by a male physician to accompany him when he does a rectal on a female, and not have the male RN go with him if it is his patient. That seems to reinforce this same stereotype, that if 2 men go into a room with a vulnerable female, then they must have sexual thoughts about her! How do you do things where you work? I don't mind being the chaparone, but it seems like a double standard.
Years ago a non nurse friend asked me if my husband ever got jealous because I was "around so many naked men". I told her that he knew that most of the member' I saw, had a foley hanging out of them! Somehow that just doesn't evoke any passionate feelings at all!

As crude as it sounds the Doc is simply trying to protect himself and the nurse. In the ER especially you just don't know who you have there and so many women (everybody for that matter) are simply looking for a way to accuse another person of inappropriate behavior. As soon as they manage to make an accusation, they are free to file a suit against the Doc and nurse. By taking a woman with him for the exam, the pt is less likely to sue because if it were two men the pt looking for a law suit can claim one man is simply trying to "cover up" for the other.

It would not likely survive in court but who in this day can afford to take that chance?! Even out of court settlements are cheaper than fighting the accusations. Our system is way out of control on this and you can't blame the Doc for trying to cover his back side.

It's childish for people to act this way, but one Doc at one time and one nurse at some other time crossed the line now all have to pay for it.

Just look at some of the posts we have in this thread, there are nurses who actuallly think other nurses are only in it for the sexual arrousal! With that kind of attitude, how is a man to survive in his job? How can any of us ever expect to be treated as professionals if we do not even believe in the professionalism of our peers?