Why Do We Tolerate This?

Nurses Men

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You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.

Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928

This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987

This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?

Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?

Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.

In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?

In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?

So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?

Kevin McHugh

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
I respect your question, Kev. I hear you.

I often wonder why we, male and female in nursing, tolerate a LOT of things, like abusive physicians, poor working conditions, unsafe patient-nurse ratios, and failure to advocate for our patients by colleagues----as well as many other things--- it goes on and on. Why is it, nursing tolerates so much when we as a group could be powerful enough to effect SO MUCH POSITIVE CHANGE? Why is it, we bicker among ourselves about things that are not make-or-break to our profession, yet leave things that are "broken" unfixed???????

Good point. Of course, a lot of nurses apparently aren't tolerating it, but are leaving the field in droves. Which might partly reflect a broader range of opportunities for women. I think I read that men leave nursing even more rapidly than women do, which is interesting, and a bit alarming (to me, at least).

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
Being a male in the nursing profession today does present challenges. I see the need for a forum on "Issues for men in nurisng" but not "The Male Nursing Forum"

So when do we get a Gay/lesbian/transgendered forum? They face many challenges in Nursing. NonChristian nurses working with the Christian majority? Asian/Arab Nurses - that are treated with bias from patients and coworkers?

All of these present challenges and special issues in Nursing.

My point is when you say (as the poster that I referenced, and you responded to my reference) "I want to be referred to as a nurse, not a male nurse"...and post in a "Male Nursing Forum", doesn't it just contradict what you say?

With as many times as rascism comes up, where is the "African American/Black Forum"?

Carolina

Who would like to get rid of all devisive "isms".

Specializes in RN, BSN, CHDN.
So when do we get a Gay/lesbian/transgendered forum? They face many challenges in Nursing. NonChristian nurses working with the Christian majority? Asian/Arab Nurses - that are treated with bias from patients and coworkers?

All of these present challenges and special issues in Nursing.

My point is when you say (as the poster that I referenced, and you responded to my reference) "I want to be referred to as a nurse, not a male nurse"...and post in a "Male Nursing Forum", doesn't it just contradict what you say?

With as many times as rascism comes up, where is the "African American/Black Forum"?

Carolina

Who would like to get rid of all devisive "isms".

You do have a great way of putting things, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I think we should have a Kindred spirit forum and I would invite you anf Fergus

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

Carolina, excellent point about wanting to be considered a "nurse" before being a "male nurse", yet participating in a separate forum.

As Brian stated he's recieved many requests over a long time for a men's forum. If there were frequent requests for any of those forums you mention, perhaps he would consider having one.

In the meantime, why don't you bring the above post the this forum where is might be better served: https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097673#post1097673&conly=

At first I maintained that a male nurses forum need not be devisive. I was dead wrong and am very disappointed in this forum.

I have to ask a favor for this and all future threads in this forum. Can we please not turn every single thread into a debate as to whether or not a male nursing forum should exist? I don't want to rehash that out every time someone starts a thread here.

I understand, many of you may feel that such a forum is devisive, but if so, why post to it? Why try to hijack every thread to your purpose? If you do not believe that men in nursing face at least some challenges that females in nursing don't face, that highlights the need for the forum.

If this forum chaps you off, great. Go to the thread Tweety referenced and let the mods and board owners know of your angst at exclusion there.

Good grief.

Kevin McHugh

At first I maintained that a male nurses forum need not be devisive. I was dead wrong and am very disappointed in this forum.

Ditto, particularly to the disappointment. Nuff said

Kevin

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
So when do we get a Gay/lesbian/transgendered forum? They face many challenges in Nursing. NonChristian nurses working with the Christian majority? Asian/Arab Nurses - that are treated with bias from patients and coworkers?

All of these present challenges and special issues in Nursing.

My point is when you say (as the poster that I referenced, and you responded to my reference) "I want to be referred to as a nurse, not a male nurse"...and post in a "Male Nursing Forum", doesn't it just contradict what you say?

With as many times as rascism comes up, where is the "African American/Black Forum"?

Carolina

Who would like to get rid of all devisive "isms".

Not meaning to be defensive, but I think it's fair to point out that it would generally be illegal to discriminate against a gay/lesbian/transexual nurse or a non-christian nurse or any nurse based on race or ethnicity. I'm not sure--a church sponsored hospital might get away with not hiring gays or non-christians, if they could operate without Federal funding. But if courts have upheld, as I've read, not hiring men for OB, then that does seem to make us "a

little bit special."

Honestly, I think we just need to give this some time. In the early going, it may tend to degenerate into male vs female, but I think it will eventually evolve into farting and football.

Go, Steelers! (Pardon me.)

Specializes in Utilization Management.
I think it will eventually evolve into farting and football.

I'm sure we can find you guys a nice grunting and scratching smiley somewhere here too... ;)

Kev - can I just mention that I've never thought a men's forum was a bad idea . . . I'm not sure what is happening here. We don't need a woman's forum because most of the threads are by women anyway . . you could almost say the whole bulletin board is "female". :)

As to your op . . . . and Tweety's tush . . . I think things happen when we are young and inexperienced that would never happen now. I worked as a secretary when I was 21 and my boss walked in behind me as I was typing and put his hands on my breasts and I just froze . . . fortunately he walked away after making a comment about how nice they were. I stayed at that job another week before I had the nerve to quit. I had no idea how to handle it. I think women put up with things when they don't have any preparation ahead of time. I talk to my daughter and sons alot about inappropriate touching . . but even so I'm not sure even that is enough. I think youth and inexperience has alot to do with why we put up with things.

If it happened today, I'd be up and out of that chair so fast and he'd be shoved across the room.

I also think, having married a man and given birth to two boys . . men have weird senses of humor - no offense - toilet humor, fart jokes, member jokes, dog humping jokes, etc., . . . . maybe the chest hair thing is MILD compared to what they are used to. :) Maybe that is why they don't respond. I'm not sure men are offended - my kids and husband wouldn't be - they would laugh it off. Obviously I have always hated generalizing so I don't mean to do that . . . but maybe there is a small point to be made that some men's humor is different than some women's.

I'm not sure you can equate chest hair with breasts though . . although the comments are completely unwelcome.

I don't think nursing is unique in any of the problems you all have been discussing. The lack of power. The sniping. Bickering. It happens everywhere. I've worked in a number of different jobs . . . it is the same everywhere.

Now, I have to admit to not posting here because I wanted you guys to hash it out without having any female interference . . .I was interested in what you all really thought. I will say that this thread has veered off in a different direction than intended . . . I will continue to let you all post in your thread without butting in after this . . just had to add my two cents.

There are unique things men experience as nurses and I see no reason why they can't talk about it. Or anything else they want to talk about.

Carry on . . . .

steph

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
Carolina, excellent point about wanting to be considered a "nurse" before being a "male nurse", yet participating in a separate forum.

I quite frankly could care less about different forums. I am the one that wishes to get rid of the "isms" that divide Nursing. And quite frankly, having separate forums for every little group merely works to promote "isms" that should be done away with.

We tend to gripe and whine to our own little group, saying how put upon we are, "unlike all other groups...and not a darn constructive thing comes from it......much like the Republicans and the Democrats that never cross lines, perpetually destroying any hope of consensus and unity. If we are forced to work with others not of our ken, we might actually accomplish unity, something Nursing vitally needs.

And the Christian /nonChristian forum issue has been beaten to death like the dead horse that it is, and the separate forum idea denounced soundly, as it should be.

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
Not meaning to be defensive, but I think it's fair to point out that it would generally be illegal to discriminate against a gay/lesbian/transexual nurse or a non-christian nurse or any nurse based on race or ethnicity. I'm not sure--a church sponsored hospital might get away with not hiring gays or non-christians, if they could operate without Federal funding. But if courts have upheld, as I've read, not hiring men for OB, then that does seem to make us "a

little bit special."

AND YOU THINK THAT SORT OF BIAS ONLY OCCURS WITH MEN AND OB!!!!!!!!!!!!! And doesn't occur similarly with any of the groups that I cited. Where have you been hiding from the real world? It occurs daily and with many groups other than men and other than OB. Maybe it hasn't gone to court yet, but it certainly occurs.

Yes, bias should be illegal against those groups and men, yet it has yet to have stopped it. I personally think that court decision was more than a bit ridiculous.

_________________________________________________________________

But returning to the topic/thread:

In the "Hannity and Colmes" thread, there was comment about asking the lift team to raise their shirts to show off six pack abs. What kind of guys cooperate with that sort of tacky behavior? It is also very antihygenic and hardly professional. They are feeding into bad behaviors on both sides.

If you give a mouse a cookie, don't be surprised when he returns for a glass of milk.

I personally have dealt with male coworkers feeling me up in the "guise" of helping me, inappropriate touching, inappropriate suggestions, asking repeatedly for dates (they were married), MDs that want to take me out for drinks (married), residents that flirt (10-15 years younger than me). I don't complain to management but shut them down quickly on my own.

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
AND YOU THINK THAT SORT OF BIAS ONLY OCCURS WITH MEN AND OB!!!!!!!!!!!!! And doesn't occur similarly with any of the groups that I cited. Where have you been hiding from the real world? It occurs daily and with many groups other than men and other than OB. Maybe it hasn't gone to court yet, but it certainly occurs.

Yes, bias should be illegal against those groups and men, yet it has yet to have stopped it. I personally think that court decision was more than a bit ridiculous.

_________________________________________________________________

But returning to the topic/thread:

In the "Hannity and Colmes" thread, there was comment about asking the lift team to raise their shirts to show off six pack abs. What kind of guys cooperate with that sort of tacky behavior? It is also very antihygenic and hardly professional. They are feeding into bad behaviors on both sides.

If you give a mouse a cookie, don't be surprised when he returns for a glass of milk.

I personally have dealt with male coworkers feeling me up in the "guise" of helping me, inappropriate touching, inappropriate suggestions, asking repeatedly for dates (they were married), MDs that want to take me out for drinks (married), residents that flirt (10-15 years younger than me). I don't complain to management but shut them down quickly on my own.

I realize that men--especially straight, WASP men, have historically enjoyed unfair advantages over pretty much everyone else. Which isn't to say we're all guilty--sometimes you benefit from advantages you never asked for. My point about OB was that it's one of few areas where discrimination is legally sanctioned, at least in some jurisdictions. Doesn't actually rile me a lot--it doesn't seem to be something I'm really excited about doing, anyway, but I can see where others might take it more personally. In the real world, of course, laws aren't always enforced as vigorously as they should be, and in some instances they're pretty darned hard to enforce even when most people want to. It's a lot easier to accuse someone of sexual harassment, for example, than to prove it, which may be one reason it goes unreported by both genders.

I do tend to agree with Tweety, that we put up with a lot more when we're young and inexperienced. I wouldn't grope any of my co-workers as a matter of principle, but I can think of a number that I wouldn't offend as a matter of self-preservation, as well.

But I also think there's an element of "boys don't cry" at work, here, too, which I believe may have been the point of the OP, and is appropriate for discussion as a "men's issue." I, for one, would find it embarrassing to openly declare I had a problem like this that I couldn't handle, myself. I suspect that if I went to my manager with a harassment complaint, her first response would be to prefer that I did handle it myself, but if I pressed it, she would most likely back me up. Which, again, probably isn't that different from most women's situation.

Still, at least one response to the potentially offensive thread about chest hair seemed to say we ought to have a sense of humor about it. I'm actually more offended by that than the thread, itself, although "offended" is too strong a word. Mildly piqued? I don't know. Bemused, maybe.

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