Why there is a debate re: ADN/BSN

[Berkeley]

The government (military and VA) differentiate between nurses with an ADN and those with a BSN. The ANA differentiates between them, but the civilian industry does not. If the civilian hospitals ever decided that there isn't a nursing shortage and only show interest in hiring those with BSNs, all the junior colleges will dry up overnight.

I personally knew a captain in the Air Force a while back (I think it was a previous life :) ) who only had an ADN. But at that time the military really needed nurses, so they commissoned ADNs not on their eductaion but on their professional liscense of RN.

It all depends on how bad they need nurses. End the nursing shortage with a bad economy and you'll end the ADN as an entry-level degree to professional nursing.

Do you think this is true?

[classicaldreams]

Originally posted by Agnus

Here we go again:rolleyes:

For the life of me, I don't get why you folks who are tired of these types of discussions just don't ignore these posts. Do we all have to think like you? Your post promotes nothing. This type of judgment needs to be kept to yourself.

You'll always have a repeat of the same discussions on forums like these. Being new to nursing, I appreciate them. Please don't turn ideas away, as much as you think they should be. Let everyone decide if an idea merits discussion.

Thanks for your consideration.

[MrsWampthang, BSN, RN]

I am an Associate Of SCIENCE degree RN and so is my boyfriend and so are several of the nurses that I work with, including our Nurse Educator, we even have one nurse who was the manager years ago who is a Diploma RN.

I'm sorry but with the age of people going into nursing now, it is unrealistic to expect that entry level be at the BSN level. What can the BSN do that I can't do? NOTHING! I wanted to get my RN so I could work and then if I decide to, I will go and get my BSN.

If you want to go into some type of management, then go for your BSN, but, I'm sorry, you don't need a BSN to do bedside nursing or discharge teaching or anything else to do with nursing skills.

Understand, I have nothing against anyone who has the time, money and energy to go four years to school and get a BSN. I think that's great, but don't insult and belittle the ones who only had the resources and time to go two years so they could get to work sooner, or the ones that bridged from LPN to ASN. We are all nurses, I really see no difference in the SKILL level of an ASN vs BSN.

Sorry to rant, but you really hit a nerve with me.

Pam ASN, and proud of it!

BTW, what is an ADN anyway?

[classicaldreams]

Berkeley,

As you can see, you have touched a nerve. It is unfortunate that most the responses have not responded to your question.

From my experience, the workplace in many industries values education. You are usually compensated for it, so yes, I would say that if supply exceeded demand, it is possible that entry-level ADN nurses would not have the job opportunities that entry-level BSN nurses would have. If you asked the question because you are debating on obtaining and ADN vs. a BSN, get the BSN. Life somethings gets complicated when you marry and have children, and you may not have the opportunity to further your education.

Hope this helps.

[Bevi]

Originally posted by Pamela_g_c

What can the BSN do that I can't do? NOTHING! I wanted to get my RN so I could work and then if I decide to, I will go and get my BSN.

If you want to go into some type of management, then go for your BSN, but, I'm sorry, you don't need a BSN to do bedside nursing or discharge teaching or anything else to do with nursing skills.

I know an ADN who works in management!

[Q.]

Well, but haven't LPNs and CNAs been around for a long time?

Sure, but I was speaking along the lines of unlicensed roles, like the surgery tech or the OB tech or the medication tech or the various nurse extender type roles.

You don't feel valued, because you get paid less than a bedside nurse? Is that really fair? Shouldn't the bedside nurse get the highest pay?

Yes, I don't feel valued as a result of my pay. Isn't that how our capitalist society works? I don't think I am alone in that belief.

As far as if the bedside nurse should be the highest paid, that in and of itself is an entirely separate argument that warrants its own thread. But bottom line - if I am expected to teach bedside nurses, and have a Master's to do so, then I would think pay should follow. But that's my opinion. Don't be fooled - there is a nursing shortage everywhere, not just at the bedside. Nursing schools have waiting lists for entry due to the lack of instructors. There is a lack of instructors because the pay is very, very, very low.

What would make you love it again?

Not sure.

[fergus51]

I think if there were no nursing shortage the BSN would become the minimum eventually.... more out of employers being picky than out of nurses deciding to change the profession from within.

I think the real problem is the vast differences between ADN and BSN programs in the US. I got my BSN in Canada and the program was the same as the Diploma until the 3rd year (when the Diploma nurses bridged out and the BSN students continued on for another year). Until colleges that run ADN programs can also grant BSN degrees, it is just too messy to try to mandate the BSN as minimum entry to practice. Already, a few provinces in Canada are requiring the BSN from new grads (experienced diploma nurses are exempt from this requiremtent) despite the nursing shortage, and it wasn't all that difficult to do.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Berk berk berk..

I read critically and replied in kind.

I appreciate it when folks can reply without insulting others' intelligence. I did not insult you, why do so me?

It really was unnecessary. Now (breathing deeply) again.....

The shortage is NOT going to dry up any time soon. This is a different shortage in that, demographics really come into play here. To end it a couple things have to happen.

First, people out there WHO ARE ALREADY QUALIFIED to NURSE would have to be lured back to practice again. Yes, there are 1000s of nurses out there....fully qualified but CHOOSE NOT TO practice due to the many barriers they see to doing so safely and with fair compensation. This is why so many do not. It's not just because of retirement. Many are seeking other careers altogether. This is a serious concern.

Second, yo to address the shortage of INSTRUCTORS/ EDUCATORS in nursing. This is just part of the ongoing shortage of nurses a trickle down effect, if you will. These educators are graying also and no, young people are NOT stepping up to take their place in numbers sufficient to replace them 1 for 1. Without qualifed instructors, you can't exactly keep up with demand, even if there WERE enough young people out there trying to get into nursing to replace the HUGE numbers retiring or walking away altogether in disgust. Nursing programs are shutting down altogether due to lack of ability to keep on staff qualified instructors.

Three: you would have to make nursing appealing as a viable career choice to the savvy young people graduating today. It's hard to do when so many media images show us to be opposite the competent, caring professionals we are. They are not stupid; they see how we are treated and how we are portrayed on TV, in the news, and in public in general. Many don't WISH to go through 4 years of school to be perceived as a handmaiden or whipping boy for adminstration, doctors and the public we serve.

You say "who cares" if there is no access to BSN education in rural areas? I did and still do. Eventually we ALL would since, like I said before 60% of us now hold an associate's degree. What would you propose? There IS NO MONEY or INCLINICATION for these colleges to convert to 4-year BSN programs at all. WHY? They don't have enough instructors to deal with the programs they are running. Dry these up, and you dry up a HUGE pool of graduating nurses; we can't afford that. So you and I BETTER care about access. Try finding nurses in rural areas, let alone BSN programs. There just is not the $$$ to make it doable, yet they need us there.

You are being hypothetical, in your original post, I know, but be real. The shortage is due to many things, not just ebbs and flow as in the past. Demographics PLUS an ever-increasingly litigious environment, PLUS cutbacks in spending towards nursing/equipment are making it ever-harder to fill the need out there. And the baby boom generation is JUST starting to age......what'll we do when they are all over 65? The sheer NUMBERS alone are daunting.

So although you were being hypothetical and theoretical in your post, I don't see the PRACTICALITY of it. That was what I was saying.

See, I CAN read, how bout that????

Now have a beautiful day.:zzzzz

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

Of course, if there were not a shortage, a BSN would be preferred.

And by the same token, preferred would be fluency in several foreign languages, the ability to benchpress 300 lb patients by oneself, to be beautiful, shapely, nonsmoking, wear a spotless white dress and cap, uncomplaining, and single without pesky children or dates to interfere with working mandatory overtime every night.

But here in the REAL WORLD, from what I see, the shortage will not be ending in my working lifetime. As long as we see students coming out of school with some idealized notions of Nursing and finding reality of nursing quite lacking, we will have nurses leaving the profession as rapidly as enterring it.

So the question becomes basically moot.

As for me, if I were to return to school, it would not be for a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. And many people do not see the need to get a BSN, to be treated as badly as the Health care Industry currently treats nurses.

As far as this being a good economy - it is not.

As far as MDs/NPs going to underserved populations/areas, just check out the stats on Medicaid patients not being able to find a PCP or on expectant mother's difficulties in finding OBGYNs.

Some of us prefer to ponder the Real World problems.

PS. If you want to be taken seriously in this online venue, it pays to learn the lingo ('flamer') - no insult intended, just a hint.

[Berkeley]

Originally posted by classicaldreams

Berkeley,

As you can see, you have touched a nerve. It is unfortunate that most the responses have not responded to your question.

From my experience, the workplace in many industries values education. You are usually compensated for it, so yes, I would say that if supply exceeded demand, it is possible that entry-level ADN nurses would not have the job opportunities that entry-level BSN nurses would have. If you asked the question because you are debating on obtaining and ADN vs. a BSN, get the BSN. Life somethings gets complicated when you marry and have children, and you may not have the opportunity to further your education.

Hope this helps.

Finally, someone actually reads the post and responds to it intelligently. Thanks for the words of advice. I currently have a BSc in Liberal Arts and will be starting an RN-BSN program next fall.

[S.N. Visit, BSN, RN]

Originally posted by Pamela_g_c

[

BTW, what is an ADN anyway? [/b]

ADN=Associate Degree Nursing

[Berkeley]

Originally posted by Susy K

Sure, but I was speaking along the lines of unlicensed roles, like the surgery tech or the OB tech or the medication tech or the various nurse extender type roles.

Yes, I don't feel valued as a result of my pay. Isn't that how our capitalist society works? I don't think I am alone in that belief.

As far as if the bedside nurse should be the highest paid, that in and of itself is an entirely separate argument that warrants its own thread. But bottom line - if I am expected to teach bedside nurses, and have a Master's to do so, then I would think pay should follow. But that's my opinion. Don't be fooled - there is a nursing shortage everywhere, not just at the bedside. Nursing schools have waiting lists for entry due to the lack of instructors. There is a lack of instructors because the pay is very, very, very low.

Not sure.

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but your reply sounds very much like what I came to know of nursing school instructors. The ones I had were very poor teachers, and they really lacked skill on the floor, as well. They hated their jobs and they hated the students and they were terrible examples for others to follow. Of course there was one who was very good, and the chairperson was very good. But that's like 2 out of 20. So, frankly, I'd actually support cutting their pay, not raising it.

You should try to find what you love about nursing, or did love about it and try to return to that. You don't sound happy, and if nursing is as great a misery to you as it was to the instructors I had, then you really aren't helping anyone or yourself.

That's just my opinion, though, and you know what opinions are like.

[Berkeley]

Originally posted by fergus51

I think if there were no nursing shortage the BSN would become the minimum eventually.... more out of employers being picky than out of nurses deciding to change the profession from within.

I think the real problem is the vast differences between ADN and BSN programs in the US. I got my BSN in Canada and the program was the same as the Diploma until the 3rd year (when the Diploma nurses bridged out and the BSN students continued on for another year). Until colleges that run ADN programs can also grant BSN degrees, it is just too messy to try to mandate the BSN as minimum entry to practice. Already, a few provinces in Canada are requiring the BSN from new grads (experienced diploma nurses are exempt from this requiremtent) despite the nursing shortage, and it wasn't all that difficult to do.

You know, you have something there, and I hadn't thought of it. The US government makes a distinction between the ADN and the BSN. It is very possible that if socialized medicine takes hold in the US, the ADN could be replaced by the BSN as an entry level degree.