What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses?

[foreverLaur]

I'm in an associate degree RN program. I have a previous BA in Psychology and just finished up my last two classes online to also get my BS in Business Administration. I have worked for over a year as a PCA at a local hospital and also work as a supplemental instruction leader to help incoming nursing students do better in their first and second quarters. Yet all the nursing recruiters at the hospitals I'm looking at say that without a BSN, none of that will matter and my odds of getting hired are slim to none since I am competing with 4 well respected BSN programs.When asked why, all the hospitals said it is a requirement for Magnet status. From what I can tell, the requirements in terms of degrees for Magnet status are:

1. The CNO must have at a minimum, a master's degree at the time of application. If the master's degree is not in nursing then either a baccalaureate degree or doctoral degree must be in nursing.

2. Effective 1/1/2011 - 75% Nurse Managers must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

3. Effective 1/1/2013 - 100% Nurse Managers must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

4. Effective 1/1/2013 - 100% of nurse leaders must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

By the AANC's definition, most nurses don't fall under any of these cateogories. A nurse leader is a nurse with line authority over multiple units that have RNs working clinically and those nurse leaders who are positioned on the organizational chart between the nurse manager and the CNO. A nurse manager is Registered Nurse with 24 hour/7day accountability for the overall supervision of all Registered Nurses and other healthcare providers in an inpatient or outpatient area. The Nurse Manager is typically responsible for recruitment and retention, performance review, and professional development; involved in the budget formulation and quality outcomes; and helps to plan for, organize and lead the delivery of nursing care for a designated patient care area.

There are NO requirements or recommendations stated for the vast majority of nurses - the ones doing the bedside care on a daily basis. So why are all the local hospitals hiding behind Magnet as their reason for only wanting to hire BSN nurses when that's not true at all?? I do plan to get my BSN and my MSN, but I need experience first and nobody will apparently hire me when I graduate! I also cannot afford a RN-BSN program without a job that will help me pay for it (all these hospitals offer tuition reimbursement for RN-BSN programs) because I am fresh out of undergraduate loans.

So what's the deal and what do us associate degree nurses do!?

[hiddencatRN, BSN, RN]

In my ADN program, an 83 was an F, failing. You met the standards or you were out. You had to make a 94 to get an A. Then I went on to the BSN program, and a 70 was passing! The BSN program was a joke compared to the ADN program I had just went thru. I already had most of the pre-reqs for the BSN, so I just had to take classes specific to nursing. I honestly felt like I did not learn a thing, just spent more money. I am only speaking for myself, of course, but I feel that my ADN program was far superior to my BSN program. The problem I am seeing in my area now is that the BSN students get out and think they will automatically be in management.

That's cool. At my BSN program, 77 was passing, and at the ADN program I was considering, a 70 was passing (plus I had a peds and maternity clinical placement which the ADN program did not offer its students). Comparing passing standards is comparing apples to oranges because an 83 versus a 70 or a 77 versus a 70 doesn't tell you anything about how hard the exams are or how much material they cover. I also don't think it'a accurate to compare prelicensure BSNs to BSN bridge programs (from all the threads here on the topic I've read it seems like the BSN bridge programs are designed to be easily completed by working professionals and the prelicensure BSN programs are...well, not).

[Laurie52]

I said professional disciplines. If nursing wants to have financial parity with pharmacists and physical therapists they will need to bite the bullet and make BSN the entry level into practice. These are just cold hard financial and business realities.

[MissBrahmsRN]

Let my try and explain it this way.

Life is hard. Finding a job is hard, no matter what job it is now. Even a local McDonald's in my area had 50 people apply for one cashier position. Yes, McDonald's.

In order to be successful in life you must be competitive in many ways. One of which just happens to be that "dumb piece of paper." While there might be numerous other qualities and experiences that are both desirable and of necessity, that piece of paper with the BSN on it allows you to be more competitive in getting your foot through the door.

Would I prefer to do my two years, have very little debt, if any, from school and go on to make a very nice salary? Of course! Path of least resistance. I have no dependents and so I can afford to spend a bit of extra money to get to where I would like to be, however the primary reason I am going for my BSN is what I stated before; To be competitive.

i wish my ADN took me only 2 years, but that was just the nursing core. the other classes took an extra 18 months on top of that. so really, it was 3.5 years for an ADN from my college.

programs vary, in my ADN an 80 was passing BUT required remediation on top of that to proceed. we had peds, L&D, & mental health clinicals also.

had no trouble getting hired, in fact we hire about 75% ADNs on my unit. HOWEVER, i am aware that i will probably need to get a BSN someday. just frustrated about the costs.

[Jules A, MSN]

I said professional disciplines. If nursing wants to have financial parity with pharmacists and physical therapists they will need to bite the bullet and make BSN the entry level into practice. These are just cold hard financial and business realities.

I'm a bit confused because I don't think that PTs and Pharmacists are on the same professional level to begin with nor do I think that nurses should flatter themselves to think we would be on par with pharmacists or physicians because we require an entry BSN. I don't really have a problem with the BSN being entry level although I stand by my thoughts that for whatever reasons in this area BSN new grads are way more difficult to orient to floor duties than LPNs or ADNs. I think we are going back to the old argument of just how professional do we want to consider ourselves and just how much education does one actually need to be a competent floor nurse?

[Jules A, MSN]

The days are gone when just being a warm body at work is enough.

Yes, this means more than just showing up for your shift. It means being involved in committee work, ongoing education and being an advocate for nursing in your community.

I'm all about continuing education and while I find the "warm body" comment offensive I don't for one minute think that being a nurse should require me to do frigging committees, bulletin boards, posters etc. What other profession requires this kind of self-promoting bs?

[netglow, ASN, RN]

But since we are doing the "weeding out based on education" thing in this thread, nobody should gain entrance or remain in any nursing program unless they can achieve.

At the point of entry into your actual nursing courses you will be vetted once again on ALL courses taken, and then as well, only the best can continue into nursing. So, you don't just need to gain acceptance to your college of choice, but you need to show what you are worth for each and every course you take. All nursing programs nation-wide must adopt these rules, so the not so good people don't sneak in. No lower than 86%, but that might not be good enough if others do much better than you, As Heidi Klum says, "your out!". There will be fewer positions available as you advance, this to only turn out the best.

On top of that only those who graduate with highest honors should be considered first for all new grad positions. All college edu of any kind that you have ever done - all transcripts - should be reviewed as vetting material. If you have another degree, those transcripts will also be considered. If your previous degree was a while back and you never used it, or did not "fly" with it, that will cost you as we don't need nurses who haven't shown previous commitment to edu/career. If you just graduated and turned around and now want a nursing degree, you need to convince the admissions staff that you are serious about this one, and have the financial ability to be worth the investment as if you default in your loan payments (just completed degree and now this one), you will not keep your license in some states (you in fact would be a waste of space that can be better used by someone else).

Think this is too tough? Why? If we are really wanting the best and brightest and we are using education as our soapbox, then lets REALLY do it, not just be "all talk".

I know I would pass, would you?

Add: Also we all will have to recertify every 7-10 years. Retake the boards but this time the test will be more complex as we are experienced now.

[lola129]

BSN's don't make "better" nurses. A degree can't make an individual a "better" nurse. But to elevate the "job" of nursing to a "profession," a 4 year college degree is required. The hallmark of a profession is higher education. You need a Master's Degree to teach kindergarteners the alphabet.

[lola129]

I said professional disciplines. If nursing wants to have financial parity with pharmacists and physical therapists they will need to bite the bullet and make BSN the entry level into practice. These are just cold hard financial and business realities.

Yes! I prefer to have financial and professional parity with physical therapists and pharmacists, not surgical technicians and EMT's.

[hiddencatRN, BSN, RN]

But since we are doing the "weeding out based on education" thing in this thread, nobody should gain entrance or remain in any nursing program unless they can achieve.

At the point of entry into your actual nursing courses you will be vetted once again on ALL courses taken, and then as well, only the best can continue into nursing. So, you don't just need to gain acceptance to your college of choice, but you need to show what you are worth for each and every course you take. All nursing programs nation-wide must adopt these rules, so the not so good people don't sneak in. No lower than 86%, but that might not be good enough if others do much better than you, As Heidi Klum says, "your out!". There will be fewer positions available as you advance, this to only turn out the best.

On top of that only those who graduate with highest honors should be considered first for all new grad positions. All college edu of any kind that you have ever done - all transcripts - should be reviewed as vetting material. If you have another degree, those transcripts will also be considered. If your previous degree was a while back and you never used it, or did not "fly" with it, that will cost you as we don't need nurses who haven't shown previous commitment to edu/career. If you just graduated and turned around and now want a nursing degree, you need to convince the admissions staff that you are serious about this one, and have the financial ability to be worth the investment as if you default in your loan payments (just completed degree and now this one), you will not keep your license in some states (you in fact would be a waste of space that can be better used by someone else).

Think this is too tough? Why? If we are really wanting the best and brightest and we are using education as our soapbox, then lets REALLY do it, not just be "all talk".

I know I would pass, would you?

Add: Also we all will have to recertify every 7-10 years. Retake the boards but this time the test will be more complex as we are experienced now.

It's not about weeding, it's about screening. Screening is a quick way to shift through mountains of applicants. Why bother delving into all that detail until you've cut down your list applicants by half simply by requiring a minimum degree? Do all job applicants have their references called? Of course not. You only get scrutinized if you've passed whatever preliminary requirements an employer has in place.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

I'm all about continuing education and while I find the "warm body" comment offensive I don't for one minute think that being a nurse should require me to do frigging committees, bulletin boards, posters etc. What other profession requires this kind of self-promoting bs?

You'd be surprised....

ETA: I won't leave it so ambiguous. Anywhere where "cultural change" becomes a buzzword, you are expected to sit on committees and come up with internal motivators and reminders. It's pervasive in the corporate world.

[SummitRN, BSN, RN]

But since we are doing the "weeding out based on education" thing in this thread, nobody should gain entrance or remain in any nursing program unless they can achieve.

At the point of entry into your actual nursing courses you will be vetted once again on ALL courses taken, and then as well, only the best can continue into nursing. So, you don't just need to gain acceptance to your college of choice, but you need to show what you are worth for each and every course you take. All nursing programs nation-wide must adopt these rules, so the not so good people don't sneak in. No lower than 86%, but that might not be good enough if others do much better than you, As Heidi Klum says, "your out!". There will be fewer positions available as you advance, this to only turn out the best.

On top of that only those who graduate with highest honors should be considered first for all new grad positions. All college edu of any kind that you have ever done - all transcripts - should be reviewed as vetting material. If you have another degree, those transcripts will also be considered. If your previous degree was a while back and you never used it, or did not "fly" with it, that will cost you as we don't need nurses who haven't shown previous commitment to edu/career. If you just graduated and turned around and now want a nursing degree, you need to convince the admissions staff that you are serious about this one, and have the financial ability to be worth the investment as if you default in your loan payments (just completed degree and now this one), you will not keep your license in some states (you in fact would be a waste of space that can be better used by someone else).

Think this is too tough? Why? If we are really wanting the best and brightest and we are using education as our soapbox, then lets REALLY do it, not just be "all talk".

I know I would pass, would you?

Add: Also we all will have to recertify every 7-10 years. Retake the boards but this time the test will be more complex as we are experienced now.

Your post demonstrates that you don't quite understand the point or variation in higher education. I could go on at length about standards and curves, but there are many classes where 20% is passing with flying colors. I've had such classes and they aren't nursing. I've also been to schools where an A from one would be an F at another based on content and perofrmance, not %.

The point of increased is increasing breadthand depth, not inane numerical cutoffs without interrater reliability.

[MrChicagoRN, RN]

Your post demonstrates that you don't quite understand the point or variation in higher education. I could go on at length about standards and curves, but there are many classes where 20% is passing with flying colors. I've had such classes and they aren't nursing. I've also been to schools where an A from one would be an F at another based on content and perofrmance, not %.

In simpler terms, I was thinking that I could prepare a test on any topic.

I could make it so hard that most of the class would get 20% or so simple that the same students would score in the 90's

Whether passing is 85, or 65, is irrelevant