What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses?

[foreverLaur]

I'm in an associate degree RN program. I have a previous BA in Psychology and just finished up my last two classes online to also get my BS in Business Administration. I have worked for over a year as a PCA at a local hospital and also work as a supplemental instruction leader to help incoming nursing students do better in their first and second quarters. Yet all the nursing recruiters at the hospitals I'm looking at say that without a BSN, none of that will matter and my odds of getting hired are slim to none since I am competing with 4 well respected BSN programs.When asked why, all the hospitals said it is a requirement for Magnet status. From what I can tell, the requirements in terms of degrees for Magnet status are:

1. The CNO must have at a minimum, a master's degree at the time of application. If the master's degree is not in nursing then either a baccalaureate degree or doctoral degree must be in nursing.

2. Effective 1/1/2011 - 75% Nurse Managers must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

3. Effective 1/1/2013 - 100% Nurse Managers must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

4. Effective 1/1/2013 - 100% of nurse leaders must have a degree in nursing (baccalaureate or graduate degree)

By the AANC's definition, most nurses don't fall under any of these cateogories. A nurse leader is a nurse with line authority over multiple units that have RNs working clinically and those nurse leaders who are positioned on the organizational chart between the nurse manager and the CNO. A nurse manager is Registered Nurse with 24 hour/7day accountability for the overall supervision of all Registered Nurses and other healthcare providers in an inpatient or outpatient area. The Nurse Manager is typically responsible for recruitment and retention, performance review, and professional development; involved in the budget formulation and quality outcomes; and helps to plan for, organize and lead the delivery of nursing care for a designated patient care area.

There are NO requirements or recommendations stated for the vast majority of nurses - the ones doing the bedside care on a daily basis. So why are all the local hospitals hiding behind Magnet as their reason for only wanting to hire BSN nurses when that's not true at all?? I do plan to get my BSN and my MSN, but I need experience first and nobody will apparently hire me when I graduate! I also cannot afford a RN-BSN program without a job that will help me pay for it (all these hospitals offer tuition reimbursement for RN-BSN programs) because I am fresh out of undergraduate loans.

So what's the deal and what do us associate degree nurses do!?

[melmarie23, MSN, RN]

I feel like its groundhog's day.

[missLissRn]

I'm sorry to everyone that thinks a BSN is not worth the money.. but I thank God for my awesome instructors and think every single penny i have spent and will spend the next forever paying back was completely worth it! and no mommy and daddy didn't help me pay for it, i am a married, mom of 3 and still found a way to come up with the money, (and no i'm not a welfair mom and went on grants, i had to pay cash and loans and still managed to go to a private school). and just an FYI us BSN grads are having a very hard time finding jobs as well.... only about half of my graduating class right now has jobs. please don't sit here and bash us BSN grads, because you decided to go for your ADN and not your BSN. WE are both nurses, WE both worked our butts off for our degree's. its not fair for you to degrade my degree when i worked just as hard for it, just because your mad at the current situation of what hospitals are hiring. it's not my fault that hospitals are doing this, why are you going to bash BSN's just because they went for a 4 year degree instead of a 2. Neither degree makes better nurses, we both are in the same position, new grads. what makes us good nurses is how we go on from here.

[Rhythsetradio]

I started off with an ADN in May 09..did not find a job in an acute care facility till April 10, and I moved across the country for it. I immediately got my BSN before I started working. I have found that by advancing my degree, I am respecting the nursing profession and upholding the standards that should be held in the practice. I think it should be an immediate requirement that we continue on towards a bachelors program after graduating. This higher degree, continuously striving towards being higher educated, helps build more respect from patients... notice how differently we get talked to, compared to the pharmacist, PT/OT member?

This could seriously change if the nursing profession held at the same educational standard as other disciplines. I don't know how many times I've heard from patients about "my two year degree" negative and positive feedback, until I explain to them No actually I have a four year degree and honestly, it changes. MD respect changes, it's a whole different ball game. And I found all the evidenced based nursing research classes amazing and it really creates a different light on nursing.

In edition, speaking of magnet status. I live on the west coast so... yes things run different out here but, I have work in both facilities...and I would never leave my magnet hospital. The respect, support, and everything else in a hand basket far surpasses what I have experienced in a 400 bed community non-magnet hospital that has poor/no nursing profession support and respect. I understand that is may not be everywhere but, just my two cents.

It's all about supporting the profession, patients, and receiving the respect that we deserve for a constant ever-changing and demanding line of work.

[NicuGal, MSN, RN]

I work at a Magnet Facility....it has improved our work conditions :) That said, yes, they have to have a certain percent of their RN's with BSN's to be able to reapply. We have been pretty much only hiring BSN even if our numbers are okay. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is the trend of the times. I started out with a diploma, which was the most sought after degree 20 some years ago! Also, within our hospital, to sit on many of the committees you must hold a BSN (research, quality, education, preceptor).

I think ADN's turn out some great nurses with great skills, BSN kiddos don't get that kind of experience for the most part. I wish there was a compromise.

[whereslilly]

I have worked at both Magnet and non Magnet designated facilities. Personally, for me as in any hospital the care you get is only as good as the nurse at your bedside. This is not determined by what piece of parchment he/she has at home. I have worked with some LPNs who I would prefer care for me than some BSN's I have worked with. Sure, I got a kick out of saying I work, or worked at BLANK hospital. Looks nice on my resume. Working at a very busy Trauma Center that had a Kick -ss rep looks good as well. .. Not to start a riot just wondering, why is it these preferred BSN grads are having such a hard time passing the NCLEX?? What would you do if you actually had to have a passing grade, and sit for 8 hrs X 2 days for the exam? Then if you did not pass, you had to wait 6 months to retake the exam. Just look at the NCLEX threads; failing 2&3 times!! And don't hide behind "not being a good test taker". Please don't say this is a negative post. I am merely stating my opinion. I thought this was an open forum for a free exchange of ideas.

[linearthinker, DNP, RN]

Nice post Rhythsetradio.

It was well said a few pages back, basically get with the program people, or get left behind. You spend more hours on allnurses bemoaning your fate than it would take to apply to a a BSN program near you, lol. So just do it. It isn't fair, you may not be a better nurse for it, blah, blah, blah. Just get on with it. Or not, and be here in two years when you could be finished, still complaining about the same thing. Up to you.

[ChinupBSNRN]

Just a couple of thoughts.....

I work in a Magnet hospital. They definitely hire ADN's. Just not as new grads. If you want to do the residency program, you need a BSN to do it. If you have 1 year experience and wanna work on a unit, ADN or BSN, apply away! You will be evaluated on your experience and references, not just your degree. However, the very first thing the CNO will tell you during orientation is that if you have an ADN, go back and get the BSN.

I did clinicals in 5 metro hospitals that are not magnet status. Out of them, 3 are no longer hiring or allowing the facility to be a clinical site for ADN programs. Their logic is that the BSN will eventually become the requirement for entry level and they want to challenge the ADN programs to revamp their curriculums and become BSN programs. Our nursing school dean discussed the pro and cons to this line of thinking as well as the practicality of this. However, nursing is a profession that I believe can only benefit from having more education. The facility, the patients, and yourself benefit from knowing more.

I saw the writing on the wall back in 2008 when I decided to go to nursing school. I could have done my ADN for much cheaper. However, most people I talked to in the nursing industry, most that had an ADN, encouraged me to go the BSN route. They were already beginning to see the trends between hiring of BSN versus ADN. In this new climate and environment of nursing, bedside skills are just as crucial as critical thinking. And for me, critical thinking developed due to my extended course-load in the BSN program. I am by no means saying that an ADN doesn't have critical thinking. But the more classes you take, the greater the opportunity to learn and develop the thinking skills portion.

At the end of the day, we are all nurses. We all proudly write RN after our name. I hope the day comes where we can quit making the education level a personal attack and make this about what is best for the patients and how getting more education will help us all grow in our career.

[foreverLaur]

I, unfortunately, was unable to do an accelerated BSN program and had to go ADN. I spent 2 years applying to ABSN programs and trying to secure funding and applying to tons of scholarships and meeting with tons of financial aid advisors. I guess it is "my fault" that I am in this situation since I wasn't gifted with the knowledge at 18 years of age when I went to college to pursue the "right" major and that I instead picked the "wrong" one.

I do plan to get my BSN and have NO problem with a BSN program or the "trend" for all nurses to have a BSN or higher. I came here with (what I thought were) legitimate concerns and wanted to get the thoughts and opinions of others. I have received far too many rude and harsh responses. I thought this was a place where one could speak freely but I was clearly mistaken. I will be unsubscribing to this thread.

[SummitRN, BSN, RN]

To those bemoaning BSN skills, around here the BSN programs and ADN programs have nearly the same amount, within 100 hours, with BSN programs having more... except BSN programs get more acute placements while ADNs get more LTC ALF and doctors offices. BSN programs also have special classes and clinicals like ICU and ER.

Externships can gain up to 800 additional clinical hours for a student, literally double the standard hours and in a 1:1 preceptor format. BSN programs have better externship placement and in some cases only BSN students from NLN/CCNE programs can apply to the most competitive placements.

As for NCLEX pass rates, locally and nationally, BSN programs have a higher pass rate.

Given the information above and with new grad production up 50% over a time where population grew only 17%, it is easy to see why hospitals here can and do prefer/demand BSN from new grads... those that still hire new grads...

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

If you wanted to be a nurse why did you get a bachelors in business after already spending the time and money on a BA in Psychology?

That said you could look for an accelerated BSN program or a direct entry MSN if that will please the recruiters. Of course who knows what the employment picture will be by the time you would be finished, maybe better, maybe worse.

Can you afford all the student loan debt you are amassing to get all these degrees! Because you must remain current and not in default or they will keep you from getting your license to practice nursing and then it would all be for nothing!

[Nurse SMS, MSN, RN]

I think it bears noting that frustration over a hospital not hiring you and therefore making it expensive/hard for you to continue to BSN is a little bit...well....silly. Get a different job in LTAC or LTC, home health or hospice and come up with a savings plan. Get your BSN whether someone else hands you the money or not.

The minute you make something you want someone else's responsibility to give to you, you have taken away any power you had.

Lots of us have second and third degrees and are out of government funding and scholarship eligibilities. That isn't society's problem, it is our own. It certainly isn't the problem of the private sector (the hospitals). Not when there are plenty of people finding a way to get it done on their own and vying for those same positions.

I didn't see anyone being unkind to you about this. I did, however, see a lot of people being honest. I personally do get tired of seeing so many new graduates so bitter and angry because things are not being handed to them the way things were to graduates 10 years ago. Oh well. Times change. Adapt with them. Nobody is entitled to free tuition or even a job. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is the world we live in. You made choices early in life that aren't serving you well now. You don't have to feel bad about that but you do have to accept it and live with the consequences. Something our society isn't very well versed in.

If the worst consequence you have is that you have to pay for your own BSN completion, your consequences are so much better than most of the population. You may just have to work in an ASN capacity somewhere other than a hospital until those loans are paid off, then save for your BSN all by yourself to get where you want to go. Lots of people have to pay for their own college and do. Expecting the hospital to do tuition reimbursement, after hiring you over individuals with a higher degree, because you are all tapped out from your previous degrees is basically to say they should subsidize the cost of the degrees you have that aren't useful to them so you can earn one that is. And in that light, that would be fiscal insanity on their parts in the current market conditions.

[Hospice Nurse LPN, BSN, RN]

I think it bears noting that frustration over a hospital not hiring you and therefore making it expensive/hard for you to continue to BSN is a little bit...well....silly. Get a different job in LTAC or LTC, home health or hospice and come up with a savings plan. Get your BSN whether someone else hands you the money or not.

The minute you make something you want someone else's responsibility to give to you, you have taken away any power you had.

Lots of us have second and third degrees and are out of government funding and scholarship eligibilities. That isn't society's problem, it is our own. It certainly isn't the problem of the private sector (the hospitals). Not when there are plenty of people finding a way to get it done on their own and vying for those same positions.

I didn't see anyone being unkind to you about this. I did, however, see a lot of people being honest. I personally do get tired of seeing so many new graduates so bitter and angry because things are not being handed to them the way things were to graduates 10 years ago. Oh well. Times change. Adapt with them. Nobody is entitled to free tuition or even a job. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is the world we live in. You made choices early in life that aren't serving you well now. You don't have to feel bad about that but you do have to accept it and live with the consequences. Something our society isn't very well versed in.

If the worst consequence you have is that you have to pay for your own BSN completion, your consequences are so much better than most of the population. You may just have to work in an ASN capacity somewhere other than a hospital until those loans are paid off, then save for your BSN all by yourself to get where you want to go. Lots of people have to pay for their own college and do. Expecting the hospital to do tuition reimbursement, after hiring you over individuals with a higher degree, because you are all tapped out from your previous degrees is basically to say they should subsidize the cost of the degrees you have that aren't useful to them so you can earn one that is. And in that light, that would be fiscal insanity on their parts in the current market conditions.

Well said! That is why I'm STILL working on my BSN. I could apply for loans or whatever, but I want to graduate debt free. Hence, I'm working as an LPN while attending the university part time.