Another I regret my decision to go into nursing thread. It's grown on me and I am very satisfied by what I do. However, it does not provide enough income for me to take care of my family. Not to even mention the horrible benefits that most places offer now.
I was having a discussion with a co-worker the other day and she was complaining that her husband had to install fire suppression sprinklers all weekend. However, she loved that he was making time and half for the job and shouldn't complain too much about it. Since she opened the door wide open, me, "so, if you don't mind me asking, what's time and half?" Her response, "well, he only clears $84 an hour after they take out for his retirement and benefits." As I stare blankly at her in disbelief, her response, "but he works really hard and it's an important job." Additional details, no formal education beyond high school for the job, but he did go through an apprentice program for two years. He's in a union and averages about $60 - 75 an hour, depending on the job.
The belief that what we do is somehow less important than installing sprinklers is a major reason why nursing is in its present state. Not only does my co-worker, a nurse, believe that it is justified, but society is saying that this skill is more valuable than caring for our sick people. This sentiment is rampant on AN as well and will be defended with snarky comments like, "don't let the door hit you on the way out."
It's too bad and obviously not going to change in the near future. With nursing being overwhelmingly female, a major contributing factor is that women do not know their worth. New studies indicate that most people are happy with earning between $70k and $80k. More than this doesn't necessarily make you any happier and less doesn't allow you to be your happiest.
Yes, I do make slightly more than the "happy" range with minimal overtime. Yes, I am very confident that I can install sprinklers and my co-worker stated that her husband "doesn't have the book smarts to do anything else." Meaning he could not do our job, but I'm confident that the vast majority of nurses could install sprinklers. She mentioned that she was concerned that he's getting older and it's getting more difficult for him to climb around in the ceiling. I'm relatively young and can not imagine being able to do all that's required as a bedside nurse when I'm in my later 40s or older.
I have many immediate and extended family members who are nurses and live all over the U.S. and are in many different specialties and settings. Most of them have been in nursing for over 10 years and they more or less echo my feelings. They also did their best to dissuade me from pursing nursing as a career. Wish I would have paid more attention to them and took their advice.
That is for PA - NOT an indication of salaries for State Troopers or other Law Enforcement nationwide. I assure you, in Georgia, the salaries are MUCH less than that and nurses out earn law enforcement in this state..and frankly, for all that law enforcement has to deal with and put up with, they should be paid more.
You are always going to find someone who makes more, is younger, older, more educated, etc, etc, etc..it would be difficult to live your life when worried about/focused other someone else's.
I agree w/you that the expectations of nurses are high, sometimes unfairly so, but "it is what it is" and is not likely to change anytime soon. I've worked in a variety of nursing settings, they basically end up being the same...I've worked in higher level management positions - yes, more money, but more headaches and expectations...balance is the key and if nursing isn't cutting it for you or anyone else it's understandable given the current state of healthcare..but its not going to change. The only option is to find something palatable for you or get out of it. And unions are not an option for all nurses - it would be very difficult to find a union for nurses other than the feds in this state.
Comparing yourself to the rare person who makes big money is a joy killer. For every skilled union guy making the big money in a skilled trade, there are plenty of day laborers standing along the day laborers' hangout hoping for a day's small wages. You are better off than them.
Nursing pays a middle class wage, especially for some of us who have a 2 year community college degree. I earn good money; not as much as my cousin who plays major league baseball, but enough for all needs and many wants.
Not feeling valued? Sometimes it is that way.
No quick fix for that except to practice the attitude of gratitude.
This...or learn and hone your nursing practice and become an independent contractor.
I have made nursing my business and made more money as an independent contractor; I paid taxes and was able to reap tax benefits for "knowing what I know" and was certainly valued for it.
Nurses are valued and have many avenues; the healthcare world can certainly be out oyster if more nurses took the brass ring and ran with it; but they are plenty out there "getting what's theirs" whether they are W-2'ers or 1099'ers.
Having some serious deja vu from an earlier thread.
What I don't understand, having seen this same complaint/whine posted before (and now being dressed in much more civil tones so he can be better heard) is that it ALL comes down to the very same thing. The same bottom line, no matter HOW many times it's posted: Those who are newly in the nursing field should have known, REALLY should have known, what the salary expectations were for you, and are for others with more experience. Wages are driven by supply and demand, like in EVERY field, and as long as there are fresh new grads popping up every few months en masse, of COURSE wages aren't going to be higher. Simple math, really: why would an employer pay more for something he can get for less? Saying that we should be paid more, overall, because we are worth more, overall, without having a shred of evidence to support it, is nothing more than....yes, whining and complaining and THAT has zero value. Waste of time.
You can no more prove nurses as a profession should be paid more (on the basis of your own dissatisfaction) than the sprinkler guy can prove he should be paid exactly four times what a nurse makes (again, because it's an opinion related to personal job satisfaction, NOT something that is market-driven).
I don't care if it's females or males we're talking about, because it comes down to basic numbers, quantity: if there are 100 people waiting for every job, how much 'fussing' do you think an employer is going to put up with before booting you and choosing one of the other 99? Not much. Don't like the conditions? You are welcome to leave, but it's not your EMPLOYER who is going to feel the pinch of your departure; your seat was filled before it got cold.
I DO think comparing what one makes to a completely different profession is not only meaningless, but counterproductive. Why? Because if one is to insist on comparing apples and oranges, one is going to never understand why the answer is what it is. They will continue to be unhappy, as you are. They will continue to compare apples and oranges, such as an experienced tradesman in a rather specialized industry who earns a higher (yet sporadic) hourly wage with a low-experienced nurse working shifts in a hospital.
It's common sense to know what one makes in comparison to the guy who mows your lawn and how it is related to the economy, purchasing power, yada yada. Pretty basic stuff. But your complaint isn't that you aren't earning a specific amount above the lawnmower guy, it's that you aren't earning as much as (or more than) someone in a better-paying profession. Again, we're at apples and oranges.
This is NOT a resistance to improving wages, as you have said numerous times. It's a reality check as to why wages are what they are. We're not in a pre-industrial revolution era in which workers worked 16 hour days and potentially lost an arm during one of those days, went home to sleep on the floor with a bite of bread for dinner, and then dragged themselves back to work because there were absolutely no other options, other than to die in MORE abject poverty than they were already living. I think it would be fair to say that a revolution is NOT in order for nurses today, that we earn a decent and fair wage, have benefits and other favorable options that make employment desirable in the field. For those who do not believe the benefits outweigh the costs.....yes, you have the right to vote with your feet and leave.
To inflate one's own worth on the basis of nothing more than a belief that one is 'worth' more than the skilled tradesman he apparently looks down upon is insanely arrogant. Otherwise, I would have to suggest that the one who is unhappy with what he or she is doing should get OUT of what he or she is doing, and take that "easy" job that pays more. Would have to wonder if it would seem so very easy after one has been doing it awhile.....kinda like those 'easy' nursing jobs?
Having some serious deja vu from an earlier thread.
What I don't understand, having seen this same complaint/whine posted before (and now being dressed in much more civil tones so he can be better heard) is that it ALL comes down to the very same thing. The same bottom line, no matter HOW many times it's posted: Those who are newly in the nursing field should have known, REALLY should have known, what the salary expectations were for you, and are for others with more experience. Wages are driven by supply and demand, like in EVERY field, and as long as there are fresh new grads popping up every few months en masse, of COURSE wages aren't going to be higher. Simple math, really: why would an employer pay more for something he can get for less? Saying that we should be paid more, overall, because we are worth more, overall, without having a shred of evidence to support it, is nothing more than....yes, whining and complaining and THAT has zero value. Waste of time.
You can no more prove nurses as a profession should be paid more (on the basis of your own dissatisfaction) than the sprinkler guy can prove he should be paid exactly four times what a nurse makes (again, because it's an opinion related to personal job satisfaction, NOT something that is market-driven).
I don't care if it's females or males we're talking about, because it comes down to basic numbers, quantity: if there are 100 people waiting for every job, how much 'fussing' do you think an employer is going to put up with before booting you and choosing one of the other 99? Not much. Don't like the conditions? You are welcome to leave, but it's not your EMPLOYER who is going to feel the pinch of your departure; your seat was filled before it got cold.
I DO think comparing what one makes to a completely different profession is not only meaningless, but counterproductive. Why? Because if one is to insist on comparing apples and oranges, one is going to never understand why the answer is what it is. They will continue to be unhappy, as you are. They will continue to compare apples and oranges, such as an experienced tradesman in a rather specialized industry who earns a higher (yet sporadic) hourly wage with a low-experienced nurse working shifts in a hospital.
It's common sense to know what one makes in comparison to the guy who mows your lawn and how it is related to the economy, purchasing power, yada yada. Pretty basic stuff. But your complaint isn't that you aren't earning a specific amount above the lawnmower guy, it's that you aren't earning as much as (or more than) someone in a better-paying profession. Again, we're at apples and oranges.
This is NOT a resistance to improving wages, as you have said numerous times. It's a reality check as to why wages are what they are. We're not in a pre-industrial revolution era in which workers worked 16 hour days and potentially lost an arm during one of those days, went home to sleep on the floor with a bite of bread for dinner, and then dragged themselves back to work because there were absolutely no other options, other than to die in MORE abject poverty than they were already living. I think it would be fair to say that a revolution is NOT in order for nurses today, that we earn a decent and fair wage, have benefits and other favorable options that make employment desirable in the field. For those who do not believe the benefits outweigh the costs.....yes, you have the right to vote with your feet and leave.
To inflate one's own worth on the basis of nothing more than a belief that one is 'worth' more than the skilled tradesman he apparently looks down upon is insanely arrogant. Otherwise, I would have to suggest that the one who is unhappy with what he or she is doing should get OUT of what he or she is doing, and take that "easy" job that pays more. Would have to wonder if it would seem so very easy after one has been doing it awhile.....kinda like those 'easy' nursing jobs?
I bet you're one of those Lean In advocates! lol Women don't work hard enough, apply themselves and jump to prove themselves to their employer, blah, blah, blah! Thank God we are not salary, most of us, anyway, at least get paid by the hour!
As to those 16 hour workers, the majority of nurses are working 12 hours straight pay, not overtime so we are already going back in time for worse pay! While some may prefer 12 hours for personal preference, others are forced into it due to lack of 8 hour positions. Don't kid yourself, 12 hour shifts and 7/70 shifts are for corporate business reasons to save money on overtime and perhaps to have a younger, healthier workforce which saves them even more money on pay and benefits!
While our job may not be as dangerous as some, many of us still end up injured back, neck, body, living in chronic pain and even occasionally are seriously injured or die because of an unprovoked attack by a patient or family member! Never did hear what happened to that poor 70+ nurse that was attacked and left in a coma in NYC! Has anyone heard if she is still alive and has recovered?
Having some serious deja vu from an earlier thread.
What I don't understand, having seen this same complaint/whine posted before (and now being dressed in much more civil tones so he can be better heard) is that it ALL comes down to the very same thing. The same bottom line, no matter HOW many times it's posted: Those who are newly in the nursing field should have known, REALLY should have known, what the salary expectations were for you, and are for others with more experience. Wages are driven by supply and demand, like in EVERY field, and as long as there are fresh new grads popping up every few months en masse, of COURSE wages aren't going to be higher. Simple math, really: why would an employer pay more for something he can get for less? Saying that we should be paid more, overall, because we are worth more, overall, without having a shred of evidence to support it, is nothing more than....yes, whining and complaining and THAT has zero value. Waste of time.
You are rather arrogant in that you assume your worldview of nursing should trump all others. You dismiss anything outside that as whining and complaining. Rather simplistic in your thought process and very self centered. I am advocating for improvement across the board and not just for me. You only focus on yourself and if your needs are being satisfied than the heck with the rest of the ignorant nurses who didn't know better.
Apparently I'm doing okay in nursing relative to my compensation, benefits, and I have almost 100% autonomy in my current position. I don't think coming on here will necessarily change anything for us as nurses. I am looking towards the future and plan on going beyond the limitations of discussing this on AN. You do not have to agree with me to further my desire to better nursing for EVERYONE.
I don't look down on anyone and certainly don't look down on a sprinkler installer. I assure you that digging out septic systems at 17 years old to be able to afford lunch money humbles an individual. I'll say it again, what we as nurses do SHOULD be valued more than what a sprinkler installer does. If that makes me an elitist or fill-in-the-blank in your minds, then so be it.
I could not agree more with what you said. Nursing missed the chance to make many important changes to nursing when there was really a nursing shortage, and hospitals were bending over backwards to make us happy so we would not unionize.
I said it then, and I will say it again- as long as nursing is dominated by, "martyr marys", who will do anything to not take control of our profession, will put up with anything, not to make, "daddy"-(administrators), unhappy, we will continue to be paid less than we are worth.
As long as nursings' professional practice is rolled into the room rate, housekeeping, and the complimentary roll of toilet paper, we will continue to be treated and compensated like we are.
We cannot show that we are essential to the well being of patients, even with the IOM study done a few years ago. Notice how little press that study was given. I will bet that the papers, the NY Times, etc, were paid off to prevent them from giving the study the press that it deserved.
Nothing will change, period until nurses unionize en masse, make a lot of noise, and make demands. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime, and my grandmother made it to alnmst 101 years old.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Cops don't make much; many I know in that field have to moonlight to get by. The officers aren't in a primarily female milieu; so to what can you attribute their low pay?
Another group I was surprised to learn make very little money are pilots working for regional airlines who are still mostly male. The lowest (Great Lakes) $14,616 first-year salary as of July 2014. Not being an expert on such things, there may be hidden compensation (travel perks or other benefits) but still that is ridiculously low. The average seems to be in the in the $20,000 range.
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
I'm reminded of a rather heated thread from a while back where nurses where complaining about UPS drivers making more per hour than RNs. I'm sorry, but it all seems like a bunch of sour grapes to me.
If this nurse's husband has found a skilled trade where he makes $84/hr, then more power to him. And installing sprinkler systems is likely not so easy as you seem to think. I doubt very much that it is something that a "vast majority" of nurses could do. It's a very specific task that requires very specific knowledge of engineering, architecture, building codes and government regulations. Possessing a specific area of expertise is why he is paid so much. It has nothing to do with who "society values more".
And, personally, I do find fire safety fairly important.
You are rather arrogant in that you assume your worldview of nursing should trump all others. You dismiss anything outside that as whining and complaining. Rather simplistic in your thought process and very self centered. I am advocating for improvement across the board and not just for me. You only focus on yourself and if your needs are being satisfied than the heck with the rest of the ignorant nurses who didn't know better.
And here you are, yet AGAIN attacking the individual instead of the position. You claimed in your last disastrous thread that you were being attacked and merely wanted to debate a position. Ok, I gave you the other side of that debate, and you've instantly devolved it into personal innuendo and insult. What a surprise.
As for what you wrote above, this stuff came straight out of thin air, as *I* certainly didn't write that or imply it in the least.
I don't believe my world view trumps all others, I am pointing out that YOUR world view is not doing that either. In fact, it's a view that while you and certainly others share, it is NOT one that I personally believe to be the majority view.
Then you say that I am focusing only on myself. Exactly where and how does this come across?? I said what I said because I believe it to be true, and believe it to be true for MANY OTHERS, just as YOU believe whatever you say to be true....frankly, you frequently state that you are interested in 'helping' the entire profession, but it really reads as though you are mostly interested in helping yourself. Who's self-focused, then, really? Kinda looks like.....you.
Should you insist on putting words in my mouth, at least make them believable. This was pure fabrication.
If you want others to believe you are completely altruistic in your desire to seek to increase all nurses' wages just because you believe it's due, that's fine; I see that now you're saying that you're NOT expecting to make these changes.....you're free to believe as you want, but NOT free to denigrate those who disagree. I guess you feel complaining about it should be enough to bring out the Norma Rae in everyone. I for one am free to believe that you are simply an unhappy, dissatisfied person who has by his own admission gone through several jobs in quick succession hoping to find his 'fit', and THEREFORE feels that most everyone else must feel this way, too, if only they'd admit it. Sorry, just not buying it.
I knew I should've bypassed this thread.... .....and now I think to avoid further annoyance, I will
If you want others to believe you are completely altruistic in your desire to seek to increase all nurses' wages just because you believe it's due, that's fine; I see that now you're saying that you're NOT expecting to make these changes.....you're free to believe as you want, but NOT free to denigrate those who disagree. I guess you feel complaining about it should be enough to bring out the Norma Rae in everyone. I for one am free to believe that you are simply an unhappy, dissatisfied person who has by his own admission gone through several jobs in quick succession hoping to find his 'fit', and THEREFORE feels that most everyone else must feel this way, too, if only they'd admit it. Sorry, just not buying it.
I find it interesting that the likelihood that the OP, who indicated he didn't know how bad nursing wages were, will find the exact same disillusionment moving forward as a NP as everyone continues jumping on the NP bandwagon didn't get so much as a nod.
OP stated: "They also did their best to dissuade me from pursing nursing as a career. Wish I would have paid more attention to them and took their advice."
I don't believe my world view trumps all others, I am pointing out that YOUR world view is not doing that either. In fact, it's a view that while you and certainly others share, it is NOT one that I personally believe to be the majority view.
Then you say that I am focusing only on myself. Exactly where and how does this come across?? I said what I said because I believe it to be true, and believe it to be true for MANY OTHERS, just as YOU believe whatever you say to be true....frankly, you frequently state that you are interested in 'helping' the entire profession, but it really reads as though you are mostly interested in helping yourself. Who's self-focused, then, really? Kinda looks like.....you.
If you want others to believe you are completely altruistic in your desire to seek to increase all nurses' wages just because you believe it's due, that's fine; I see that now you're saying that you're NOT expecting to make these changes.....you're free to believe as you want, but NOT free to denigrate those who disagree. I guess you feel complaining about it should be enough to bring out the Norma Rae in everyone. I for one am free to believe that you are simply an unhappy, dissatisfied person who has by his own admission gone through several jobs in quick succession hoping to find his 'fit', and THEREFORE feels that most everyone else must feel this way, too, if only they'd admit it. Sorry, just not buying it.
I knew I should've bypassed this thread.... .....and now I think to avoid further annoyance, I will
Not sure what bothers you more, that I am a male or that I am a nurse?
A little unsolicited advice for you, step back, breathe, and self-reflect. I don't believe you realize that your online persona is abrasive, rude, and arrogant. You don't really add anything constructive or beneficial to the discussion and quite frankly you seem to get off on being a contrarian. Your attitude and defense of our working conditions comes of as a it's not broke (for you), why fix it attitude.
Congratulations on outing me about not being happy with the overall state of nursing. Yes, I've worked several different jobs in the last three years. Primary reason why, local hospitals would not hire me as a new graduate in the Philadelphia area. I didn't whine or complain and my first job was 5 hours away from where I live. It was at a rural hospital where I was the only male nurse on any shift for the unit. My wife was working at the time and I would pay for a cheap hotel and do three 12s to get experience. Second job was little better, 2.5 hours away, they paid a little more, and it was a specialty that was more interesting.
In those 3 years I've been sexually harassed by a female CNA and told by HR and the manager that "she's the glue that holds the shift together." At a job that was only an hour from home I was sexually harassed by a male administrator and told by HR, "are you sure nursing is for you?" A supervisor told me that it's well known and the last three males that reported him were fired within a month. I struggled with pursing a lawsuit and for various reasons did not. I was lucky enough to find another job, my current position, within a week and overall I'm happy. Anonymous strangers telling me to leave or question if nursing is for me doesn't mean a whole lot at this point.
Statements such as there are too many nurses, supply and demand, etc., are just excuses and resistance to the change that's needed. Obviously an individual can not do this on their own and it won't change if all administration, the public, and government is hearing is our defense of the current conditions.
I've been debating on doing something more formal for several months and will be pursing something more than discussions on AN. It's a great forum and allows us to vent and is an invaluable resource for nurses. My first attempt at soliciting opinions was clumsy and crude and I tweaked my approach a lot with this thread. I am hoping to have an online presence that will in no way compete or conflict with AN in the next several months.
Not sure what bothers you more, that I am a male or that I am a nurse?
Are you seriously asking this? I couldn't possibly care less if you were a male or female; my position is exactly the same. It is YOU who continually brings that into the discussion; I have made zero references to your gender, as I see it as utterly irrelevant. I do see that you like pushing buttons, but.....this has failed :)
As for all the rest, might I suggest you take your own advice, and apply EXACTLY what you have written to me, PERSONALLY, to yourself. I think some introspection really could help you. Or maybe not, hard to say. Again, you are attacking the writer, and NOT the writings. Doesn't help your position to do so, and perhaps you'll realize it eventually. Or not. The expression "the best defense is a good offense" really is best applied in football
Your first attempt at discourse was crude and clumsy, by your own admission, and I fail to see how you have improved your stance with this set of exchanges. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Last thing I'll say, since I DID say I was done but unfortunately clicked here anyway (my bad!), is that I completely agree with all those who told you that you should have avoided nursing. It WAS a mistake, as is the excellent likelihood that your eventual experience as a brand new NP will be. Your unsuccessful search for satisfactory employment anywhere confirms that. I didn't need to "out" you at all, YOU wrote that yourself: "job hopping is my middle name and you would not believe how many nursing jobs I've had in my first three years". It was actually a kindness on my part to merely say "several" regarding that number.
.....and now I think to avoid further annoyance, I will
Marshall1
1,036 Posts
That is for PA - NOT an indication of salaries for State Troopers or other Law Enforcement nationwide. I assure you, in Georgia, the salaries are MUCH less than that and nurses out earn law enforcement in this state..and frankly, for all that law enforcement has to deal with and put up with, they should be paid more.
You are always going to find someone who makes more, is younger, older, more educated, etc, etc, etc..it would be difficult to live your life when worried about/focused other someone else's.
I agree w/you that the expectations of nurses are high, sometimes unfairly so, but "it is what it is" and is not likely to change anytime soon. I've worked in a variety of nursing settings, they basically end up being the same...I've worked in higher level management positions - yes, more money, but more headaches and expectations...balance is the key and if nursing isn't cutting it for you or anyone else it's understandable given the current state of healthcare..but its not going to change. The only option is to find something palatable for you or get out of it. And unions are not an option for all nurses - it would be very difficult to find a union for nurses other than the feds in this state.