Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[jive turkey]

1 hour ago, Jeckrn1 said:

Did I every say these were valid reasons no, just reasons why someone might not get the vaccine answering the OP question. As far as the “odds” people will also look at that as a reason not to get the vaccine. If you look at my example when I made that post I gave 2 different valves and how that could effect someone’s thinking. The one thing that I have seen or lack off on a lot Covid post has been critical thinking and attacking anyone who offers ideas not 100% like theirs. 

The problem is, several posters don't realize a valid reason not to vaccinate is subjective.  They expect you to give them a reason they consider valid themselves.   If they don't consider it valid, in their opinion, it's not valid for ANYBODY.

If you get one of those people who keep saying "you haven't provided a valid reason" just ignore em.  Until the CDC says "never mind, don't get it" there won't be a valid reason to them.

[annaig]

As the CDC states ( the immunity after taking the vaccine is 6 months) I hope mine will last at least 1 year.The  good news is that I took an antigen test recently and my natural immunity is still high after almost 9 months. 

[jive turkey]

1 minute ago, annaig said:

As the CDC states ( the immunity after taking the vaccine is 6 months) I hope mine will last at least 1 year.The  good news is that I took an antigen test recently and my natural immunity is still high after almost 9 months. 

Yea, honestly I don't think anybody knows for certain how long immunity lasts from vaccination or natural immunity.  It may vary by person, it may be indefinite, different sources quote different numbers.  What I see is people speculating natural immunity won't be durable enough despite multiple studies, the CDC included, citing how uncommon reinfection is among the previously infected.  

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

5 minutes ago, macawake said:

Just a friendly heads-up from a fellow forumite.. You might not be aware, but we have a resident forum sheriff who is constantly berating posters for being rude. He’s a rather tenacious sort. I actually tried to count the number of posts where he has reprimanded people for their posting style.. I reached a 102, but got a whopper of a headache and kind of gave up the project.. (Between you and me, he does appear to have a borderline pathological fixation on netiquette.. But shush, don’t tell). Anyway… Your post is the exact type of post that he will come down on like a ton of whining bricks, so perhaps edit it before he sees it? I’m just being a good friend here and I  promise I will edit my quote of your post if you manage to fix it before he arrives on scene).

Assemble the troops! I need help on the internet! Arrest that man immediately! 

[iNurs5, CNA]

15 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Everyone here is going to tell you it's because the CDC says you're more likely to spread COVID without vaccination.

Nevermind the fact the vaccinated can also spread it and are having breakthrough infections.

While those may be supportive arguments for taking the vaccine if one chooses, I disagree the ambiguity of such reports rises to the level of compelling the previously infected to take the shot.

Looks like we'll have to wait for several years to counter the viruses according to your posts. 

 If it's you're the one is being inconvenient then you want everyone to dance in your music.

? 

Sounds familiar. LOL. 

[Guest1171160]

52 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Everyone here is going to tell you it's because the CDC says you're more likely to spread COVID without vaccination.

Nevermind the fact the vaccinated can also spread it and are having breakthrough infections.

While those may be supportive arguments for taking the vaccine if one chooses, I disagree the ambiguity of such reports rises to the level of compelling the previously infected to take the shot.

There are some business requiring people to get the shot, even if they have had COVID19 before. 

[SmilingBluEyes]

54 minutes ago, RKM2021 said:

There are some business requiring people to get the shot, even if they have had COVID19 before. 

And well they should because NO ONE has been able to quantify immunity acquired by active infection.

I expect we will know after time, but for now, I believe this prudent.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

18 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Boston don't take this personal.  I don't believe you specifically are the bad guy.  Much of what you said in that reply is fair and understandable.

 I highlighted the word "decisions" in bold because my question was specifically geared toward those who are being compelled to take the drug or risk losing their jobs, benefits, and pensions.  

As a provider, you make a recommendations.  That's not unreasonable.  What's different here is the mandate portion.  Employees and military personnel aren't receiving recommendations.

So when they are given a mandate, comply, and the response to their injury or death is "I'm sorry there are always risks associated"

It reminds me this phrase from a movie:

"Some of you may die.  But it's a sacrifice, I am willing to make".

 

 

3 hours ago, jive turkey said:

That's what I thought. You can't answer the question so you use criticism as a cop out. The cowardice of that response is comedy. 

Let me dumb it down a little more to make it easier to answer. 

Suppose you, Boston own a own clinic, and you mandate your employees to take the vaccine. 

What do you say to the employee/survivors who suffer an injury/death after complying with your vaccine mandate?  Answer the question then talk all the crap about me you want to make yourself feel better ?

You didn't ask a question ?, but by all means "dumb it down" so that us less gifted people can understand it. 

I do own a clinic. We don't have a vaccine mandate, but if I hypothetically had one, and someone got myocarditis from the vaccine, here's what I would do: 

1. Hold their job for them while they recovered. 

2. Continue to pay them while out of work. 

3. Get them access to the best possible care they could get. 

4. Say to them: sorry this happened to you we will do whatever we can to get you healthy and back to work as quick as possible. 

Now you answer the hypothetical question: someone you talked to about reasons not to vaccinate doesn't get vaccinated, they have a Labor Day BBQ with their family and spread it to their family. A month later they've recovered but their sister wasn't so lucky. She died after a month of intensive care leaving 3 kids without a mom. What do you say to them? 

[MunoRN, RN]

19 hours ago, jive turkey said:

1.Fair enough. As for boosting immunity we see that's a challenge vaccination or not.  I shared that to help people see, they don't need to be completely dismissive of natural immunity.   

2.  I don't discount the tragedy in that at all.  That sounds awful.

3.  I didn't forget about you trying to call me out for saying reinfection was rare, then giving you about 4 or 5 references including the CDC that used those exact words.  You got quiet on that ?

I've commented on your claim as recently as Sunday, 

21 hours ago, MunoRN said:

It's been pointed out, repeatedly, that your claims that "reinfection is rare" is based on rates of reinfection of an alpha variant Covid shortly after(within 6 months or so) with another alpha infection.  What the concern is currently is with delta (not alpha) infection at greater than 6 months from previous alpha infection.  

Your response has included this study which quantifies the "rare" reinfection rate at being about 1%, which is the rate of reinfection it found in those with severe initial cases, at less than a year after initial infection, and reinfection to the alpha, not delta, variant.  It also found that their natural immunity was waning significantly after only a few months.

That's actually a far higher reinfection rate and a far shorter period of effective immunity that I would have expected to have found.

It certainly doesn't bode well for the assumption that natural immunity will provide any sort of reliable protection at more than a year and to a dissimilar variant from the initial infection.

So if you're saying that those with previous infections don't necessarily need to get vaccinated, are you saying vaccination will never be necessary?  Is there a time-from-infection when they do need to?  

[jive turkey]

39 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

 

You didn't ask a question ?, but by all means "dumb it down" so that us less gifted people can understand it. 

I do own a clinic. We don't have a vaccine mandate, but if I hypothetically had one, and someone got myocarditis from the vaccine, here's what I would do: 

1. Hold their job for them while they recovered. 

2. Continue to pay them while out of work. 

3. Get them access to the best possible care they could get. 

4. Say to them: sorry this happened to you we will do whatever we can to get you healthy and back to work as quick as possible. 

Now you answer the hypothetical question: someone you talked to about reasons not to vaccinate doesn't get vaccinated, they have a Labor Day BBQ with their family and spread it to their family. A month later they've recovered but their sister wasn't so lucky. She died after a month of intensive care leaving 3 kids without a mom. What do you say to them? 

Yes I certainly did ask you a question and you FINALLY answered it 1-4.

I don't consider you "less gifted" Boston.  I've tried to talk to you peacefully but you always throw in a jab like "utter bs" or "asinine" etc...

So if you do that, it's gonna come back to ya.  

Your response to what you'd do for your employees, I can appreciate that, it's better than nothing.  Depending on the level of injury all that may not make them whole again but you'd do more than others.  I'll give you that much.  Unfortunately, it doesn't appear employers are offering the same reassurance.  

As for your question:

I need you to clarify this hypothetical discussion because I wouldn't discuss "reasons not to" for them.  I'll gladly answer but be more clear.

If you don't want to clarify I can tell you what I already do now.  I tell EVERYONE talk to their provider first and foremost.  I tell them second, research credible sources regarding the drug, the infection, and their medical history as it relates so they make an informed decision. I empathize with their perspectives whether it's pro or contra vaccine.  I don't encourage or give any biases towards doing it or not.  

 

[jive turkey]

17 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

I've commented on your claim as recently as Sunday, 

Your response has included this study which quantifies the "rare" reinfection rate at being about 1%, which is the rate of reinfection it found in those with severe initial cases, at less than a year after initial infection, and reinfection to the alpha, not delta, variant.  It also found that their natural immunity was waning significantly after only a few months.

That's actually a far higher reinfection rate and a far shorter period of effective immunity that I would have expected to have found.

It certainly doesn't bode well for the assumption that natural immunity will provide any sort of reliable protection at more than a year and to a dissimilar variant from the initial infection.

So if you're saying that those with previous infections don't necessarily need to get vaccinated, are you saying vaccination will never be necessary?  Is there a time-from-infection when they do need to?  

Perhaps you missed it.  When you asserted that "my claims about reinfection being rare" I responded.  I'll put below part of it to keep it short, you can see all of it on pg 40:

 " These aren't "my claims".   I submitted studies, including from the CDC that stated reinfection is rare.  I didn't make arguments about variants. If you don't like the language complain to the following:

https://www.CDC.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html

Did you see the part that says "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare."

That's updated Aug 6, 2021

What you got to say now?"

I also gave you several other links to go review, and complain to the authors about reinfection rates.  

You're speculating how long natural immunity lasts so that's not a strong argument to make.

And I haven't said previously infected "don't need to". That's a decision between them and their provider.  I've said many times what my position was.  Not going to repeat. Don't add twists to it.

[toomuchbaloney]

7 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

And I haven't said previously infected "don't need to". That's a decision between them and their provider.  I've said many times what my position was.  Not going to repeat. Don't add twists to it.

Yes.  You've been very careful not to attach yourself to the fears, concerns and beliefs that would lead people to remain unvaccinated while elevating and accepting them as valid.  All while obscuring the reality that all eligible adults should vaccinate ASAP in hypothetical questions and and "open minded" appreciation of questionable judgement and bad science. That gives you room for rude and self righteous complaints about the comments of others.