Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

jive turkey · Sep 2, 2021

2 hours ago, MunoRN said:

The same page states to get vaccinated as soon as you can.

1.Again, I'm not sure where you are getting that the rate of reinfection is low enough to replace vaccination, the CDC clearly doesn't support your assertion the recommendation to gat vaccinated as soon as possible is case dependent, resulting in a recommendation to check with your doctor first.

I can't tell if that statement is supposed to counter your arguments or support them.

2.You are absolutely correct though, we don't know how long natural immunity is effective for so we shouldn't make assumptions, the most effective protection is for everyone to get vaccinated, regardless of history of previous infection.

3.What you've been suggesting (it's the title you gave to your thread) is that there are valid reasons to not get vaccinated,

Muno....

Respectfully, you don't read very clearly what I write them you come back with things I didn't say.

A valid reason not to, as I have explained before, is SUBJECTIVE. So when I say, like I have 99 times, "if someone who had COVID, wasn't high risk, talked to their doctor and decided they didn't want to take it I would consider that a valid reason"

I showed you guys all those studies to helpyou understand why I would consider it valid. Doesn't mean you're going to agree.

You don't think it's valid and people should take it anyway? COOL!

I'm not like most of you who think it's your place to decide what is and isn't valid for someone else, and think it's your business to decide what someone puts in their body.

2. It was a counter to you being dismissive of natural immunity like it's not durable enough. You don't know that and the CDC isn't 100% sure either. The CDC isn't the only source of information.

3. I think there are, you don't. End of story.

jive turkey · Sep 2, 2021

2 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

Where is the answer?

I answered you already!

Here it is again for ya buddy:

I wouldn't tell anybody not to get it. If they wanted to discuss why they didn't want to get....like I said 45 times I would tell them talk to their doctor and do their research. I would show empathy and listen. If after that they decided not to and died I'd express condolences and offer support like normal.

What you tried to do is create a story where I talked somebody out of doing it and ended up being guilty for them dying. Wouldn't happen bro. Save it.

THAT'S YOUR ANSWER

Take a screen shot so you don't have to ask me for the answer again

toomuchbaloney · Sep 2, 2021

val·id

adjective

(of an argument or point) having a sound basis in logic or fact; reasonable or cogent.

@jive turkey

Just because someone believes something doesn't make it valid.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 2, 2021

18 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Muno....

Respectfully, you don't read very clearly what I write them you come back with things I didn't say.

A valid reason not to, as I have explained before, is SUBJECTIVE. So when I say, like I have 99 times, "if someone who had COVID, wasn't high risk, talked to their doctor and decided they didn't want to take it I would consider that a valid reason"

I showed you guys all those studies to helpyou understand why I would consider it valid. Doesn't mean you're going to agree.

You don't think it's valid and people should take it anyway? COOL!

I'm not like most of you who think it's your place to decide what is and isn't valid for someone else, and think it's your business to decide what someone puts in their body.

2. It was a counter to you being dismissive of natural immunity like it's not durable enough. You don't know that and the CDC isn't 100% sure either. The CDC isn't the only source of information.

3. I think there are, you don't. End of story.

A "valid" reason is objective, not subjective.

If you're trying to retreat from your original position, which was that there was objective data to support not getting vaccinated, then there are far more graceful ways to do that. When people take their own personal time to engage in a discussion, and then you respond by suggesting they lack intelligence for responding to the objective arguments you were presenting by claiming you never said such things, you're falling a long ways from the expectations you seem to have of others.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Sep 2, 2021

34 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

A "valid" reason is objective, not subjective.

If you're trying to retreat from your original position, which was that there was objective data to support not getting vaccinated, then there are far more graceful ways to do that. When people take their own personal time to engage in a discussion, and then you respond by suggesting they lack intelligence for responding to the objective arguments you were presenting by claiming you never said such things, you're falling a long ways from the expectations you seem to have of others.

"Here sir I have this medicine for you."

"I don't want it. I refuse."

"That's fine sir, do you..."

"I know all about it, you people told me all about it. I don't want to hear anymore I don't want it. I refuse."

"Well sir I understand that but unless you give me A VALID reason I'm afraid you are required to take this medication."

-the future of nursing.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 2, 2021

23 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

"Here sir I have this medicine for you."

"I don't want it. I refuse."

"That's fine sir, do you..."

"I know all about it, you people told me all about it. I don't want to hear anymore I don't want it. I refuse."

"Well sir I understand that but unless you give me A VALID reason I'm afraid you are required to take this medication."

-the future of nursing.

That's a misrepresentation.

People are free to choose to remain unvaccinated, however ill-advised that choice is. They may believe that they have a valid reason to remain unvaccinated. They are wrong. Many of those reasons for remaining unvaccinated have been discussed and invalidated in this thread.

The future of nursing lies in critical thought, sound reasoning, and a good education blended with a desire to help people regain or maintain their health.

Jtveal, NP · Sep 2, 2021

17 hours ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

I have no argument against that. But again, being fat, having hypertension, etc, does not affect immediately the health of those of us around us. My being overweight is not going to harm or kill the person sitting next to me on public transportation.

But you are right; we need to be better examples.

17 hours ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

Is my being overweight communicable?

I have read the past 50+ pages and have been throughly entertained. However, I must interject due to the quotes above. I know it is slightly off topic from the main objective of the thread but I want to ensure my fellow peers are educated on a largely overlooked/undervalued matter. Being overweight or obese could actually be affecting those around you due to possible increased contagiousness during the illness and possible decreased vaccine efficacy.

* Increased Contagiousness

-This first article is pertaining to influenza but can largely be adapted to COVID19. According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00592-020-01522-8
"Three factors make obese subjects more contagious than leans: First, obese subjects with influenza shed the virus for a longer period of time (up to 104% longer) than lean subjects, potentially increasing the chance to spread the virus to others [22]. Secondly, the obese microenvironment favors the emergence of novel more virulent virus strains. This is due mainly to the reduced and delayed capacity to produce interferons by obese individuals and animals [17, 18]. The delay in producing interferon to contrast viral replication allows more viral RNA replication increasing the chances of the appearance of novel, more virulent viral strains [18]. Thirdly, body mass index correlates positively with infectious virus in exhaled breath [23]."

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32534848/ helps support this claim specifically for COVID19

* Decreased Vaccine Efficacy

-Luckily real world studies, according to The Obesity Society (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-07-vaccine-guidance-obese.html), thus far have yet to find that the mRNA vaccines have been less effective in protecting obese patients. However, according to the studies below I believe the duration of protection could be compromised in obese patients.

-According to (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32305981)because obese individuals have a compromised immune system, they respond poorly to vaccination against influenza, hepatitis B, tetorifice, and rabies.

-These findings appear to carry over to COVID19 as well according to (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.24.21251664v1.full-text) which states, overweight and obese patients had a decreased capacity to mount humoral immune responses to the Pfizer vaccine compared lean patients.

I believe most of us who have worked closely with COVID19 patients in the hospital have seen the overwhelming large portion of the patient population to be overweight or obese. A fairly large meta-analysis (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34348687/) and the CDC (https://www.CDC.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm) strongly support that observational finding. My point is even with vaccination recommendations we need to strongly encourage and educate our patients about better diet and lifestyle changes. Most of the industrialized counties, especially US (https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm), were primed to have poor outcomes in a viral pandemic like COVID19 with how unhealthy our population has become. Sadly this pandemic should open the eyes of many individuals about how much overall health is important. Many of the nurses on here speak about how not being vaccinated is disturbing, but I also believe the statistic of '~54% of nurses in the US are overweight' to be disturbing. We are leaders in healthcare and our community, we must practice what we teach.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1745-7599.2008.00319.x

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22033319/

Sorry plug made.... if anyone needs help with dietary advise let me know.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Sep 2, 2021

56 minutes ago, Jtveal said:

because obese individuals have a compromised immune system, they respond poorly to vaccination against influenza, hepatitis B, tetorifice, and rabies

This is fascinating stuff! Thanks for posting. But I'm fully expecting the usual suspects to throw shade on the entire post with wording like: "this is not good evidence to not get vacinated. The vaccine is safe and effective. The delta variant is et cetera. CDC sources pfizer approved vaccine good something something." NO the post has nothing to do with the topic but they WILL act like it does. It will be frustrating. It will be confusing. But for me at least, it's officially entertaining. ?? Thanks again for the interesting info.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 2, 2021

7 hours ago, Jtveal said:

We are leaders in healthcare and our community, we must practice what we teach.

What does it say to the community when we refuse to vaccinate because we don't trust the CDC or the NIH or the science of the vaccines and elevate the opinions of unaccountable and other motivated individuals?

I'd rather be cared for by a vaccinated by obese nurse than a thin nurse who isn't vaccinated during a pandemic. Wouldn't everyone?

allnurses Guide · Sep 2, 2021

6 hours ago, Jtveal said:

I have read the past 50+ pages and have been throughly entertained. However, I must interject due to the quotes above. I know it is slightly off topic from the main objective of the thread but I want to ensure my fellow peers are educated on a largely overlooked/undervalued matter. Being overweight or obese could actually be affecting those around you due to possible increased contagiousness during the illness and possible decreased vaccine efficacy.

* Increased Contagiousness

-This first article is pertaining to influenza but can largely be adapted to COVID19. According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00592-020-01522-8
"Three factors make obese subjects more contagious than leans: First, obese subjects with influenza shed the virus for a longer period of time (up to 104% longer) than lean subjects, potentially increasing the chance to spread the virus to others [22]. Secondly, the obese microenvironment favors the emergence of novel more virulent virus strains. This is due mainly to the reduced and delayed capacity to produce interferons by obese individuals and animals [17, 18]. The delay in producing interferon to contrast viral replication allows more viral RNA replication increasing the chances of the appearance of novel, more virulent viral strains [18]. Thirdly, body mass index correlates positively with infectious virus in exhaled breath [23]."

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32534848/ helps support this claim specifically for COVID19

* Decreased Vaccine Efficacy

-Luckily real world studies, according to The Obesity Society (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-07-vaccine-guidance-obese.html), thus far have yet to find that the mRNA vaccines have been less effective in protecting obese patients. However, according to the studies below I believe the duration of protection could be compromised in obese patients.

-According to (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32305981)because obese individuals have a compromised immune system, they respond poorly to vaccination against influenza, hepatitis B, tetorifice, and rabies.

-These findings appear to carry over to COVID19 as well according to (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.24.21251664v1.full-text) which states, overweight and obese patients had a decreased capacity to mount humoral immune responses to the Pfizer vaccine compared lean patients.

I believe most of us who have worked closely with COVID19 patients in the hospital have seen the overwhelming large portion of the patient population to be overweight or obese. A fairly large meta-analysis (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34348687/) and the CDC (https://www.CDC.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm) strongly support that observational finding. My point is even with vaccination recommendations we need to strongly encourage and educate our patients about better diet and lifestyle changes. Most of the industrialized counties, especially US (https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm), were primed to have poor outcomes in a viral pandemic like COVID19 with how unhealthy our population has become. Sadly this pandemic should open the eyes of many individuals about how much overall health is important. Many of the nurses on here speak about how not being vaccinated is disturbing, but I also believe the statistic of '~54% of nurses in the US are overweight' to be disturbing. We are leaders in healthcare and our community, we must practice what we teach.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1745-7599.2008.00319.x

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22033319/

Sorry plug made.... if anyone needs help with dietary advise let me know.

I'm always shocked by the statistic that 74% of the adult population is overweight or obese. I don't think there is any doubt is contributes to the country's comorbidity.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Sep 2, 2021

16 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Perhaps you missed it. When you asserted that "my claims about reinfection being rare" I responded. I'll put below part of it to keep it short, you can see all of it on pg 40:

" These aren't "my claims". I submitted studies, including from the CDC that stated reinfection is rare. I didn't make arguments about variants. If you don't like the language complain to the following:

https://www.CDC.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html

Did you see the part that says "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare."

That's updated Aug 6, 2021

What you got to say now?"

I also gave you several other links to go review, and complain to the authors about reinfection rates.

You're speculating how long natural immunity lasts so that's not a strong argument to make.

And I haven't said previously infected "don't need to". That's a decision between them and their provider. I've said many times what my position was. Not going to repeat. Don't add twists to it.

I don't need a provider to tell me what to do. I can make my own decision based on facts. But I realize that any decision I make has to be based on imperfect data because time is of the essence. If you could just post things that would add to your argument instead of spending so much effort calling out everyone else, this thread could stary less long.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Sep 2, 2021

59 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

I'm always shocked by the statistic that 74% of the adult population is overweight or obese. I don't think there is any doubt is contributes to the country's comorbidity.

This got me to drag my soap box out of the closet. Sry...

It is my belief that the biggest contributer to the obesity epidemic is a cultural norm if snacking and "3 squares a day". I've been eating 1 meal a day most days, no snacking for the last 5 years and my weight has stayed exactly the same throughout (I'm mostly sedentary) with about a 10 pound range (170-180lbs). The second is excess sugar in the diet.

My reading through basic physiology tells me excess glucose is directly stored in fat cells. Second, unless you've allowed your glucose stores to deplete and get used up, they never will get used up and thus, your body will never access the fat stores to convert back to glucose. That means weight loss simply cannot happen until the glucose stores are gone.

I've heard "balanced diet" three times a day with exercise as the message. While that's fine and all, balancing calories in and out, humans don't need to eat 3 times a day unless plenty of physical labor involved (and let's be honest, most of us aren't very active).

I have yet to hear any discussion coming from public health experts about encouraging people to eat less often (other than the "eat less move more" stuff which isn't very specific, just sounds like mom nagging). It should be "cut out one of these meals!" something like that. I feel we should move toward a cultural norm of relying on our stored fat as a common practice (I haven't eaten in like 6 hours! I feel like I'm STARVING! we all hear this all the time). If the message is "just eat twice a day maybe?" it's clearly not getting through. I'm SUPER happy about the intermittent fasting craze. This should be the message from the medical community.

The normal human body should only need to eat once a day (exceptions etc). But certainly, for over weight and obese people, I've heard the same thing (gotta eat gotta eat gotta eat). People act like they'll starve if they go six hours without food. You haven't even gone through half your glucose stores in 6 hours! That's nothing! It takes a couple months to get used to it but like, I don't start feeling hungry until about 12-24 hours. I feel like the diet advice coming from the medical community is based on flawed logic about human physiology. If we needed to eat every 6 hours the human race would have died out A LONG time ago. Heck from the research I've seen, you don't even stop heavily benefitting (such things as stress markers, certain cytokines, cortisol etc) until about 72 hours post prandial!

Most modern humans don't rely on their own fat stores for nutrition. This cuts out half of their metabolic process (glycolysis etc etc). They almost exclusively rely on oral intake. And don't get me started on insulin tolerance. Is it any wonder we have a diabetes epidemic if people are pumping insulin out all day long? It's not really the sugar, is the frequency of intake. Low sugar is great, not saying it's not beneficial, but insulin gets pumped each time you eat. With high frequency eating insulin is getting pumped on a constant basis. Is it any wonder we become resistant?

20 hours between calorie intake MINIMUM and minimize sugar intake (of course exception exception). I wish this was the message but our culture is built on a foundation of 3 meals a day.