Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[toomuchbaloney]

7 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

As a nurse you have an obligation to give every med ordered. If you don't you must chart a valid reason the medication was not given. Pt refusal is a valid reason. 

As a nurse you should be able to discern the difference between a valid reason for a nurse to NOT administer a medication and a valid reason for the patient to refuse the medication.  You can discern that, right?

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

12 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

As a nurse you should be able to discern the difference between a valid reason for a nurse to NOT administer a medication and a valid reason for the patient to refuse the medication.  You can discern that, right?

Are you suggesting refusal is not a valid reason to not give a medication? 

[toomuchbaloney]

2 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Are you suggesting refusal is not a valid reason to not give a medication? 

Reread my comment and consider carefully what the words mean rather than what you feel they mean.

Patient reasons for refusal are frequently NOT valid reasons to refuse, yet they get to refuse. That has exactly nothing to do with the nurse holding a med. It's troubling that you can't see the difference or are intentionally conflating the issues. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

1 minute ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Reread my comment and consider carefully what the words mean rather than what you feel they mean.

Patient reasons for refusal are frequently NOT valid reasons to refuse, yet they get to refuse. That has exactly nothing to do with the nurse holding a med. It's troubling that you can't see the difference or are intentionally conflating the issues. 

You are simply incorrect. The principle of informed consent requires both an informed pt, AND a consent from that pt. Refusal doesn't have to make sense. Maybe they don't trust the manufacturer. That is THEIR reason. You don't agree but their reason is valid to THEM, which makes it a valid reason by simply not consenting. Validity is relative to the pt, not you, not anyone else.

[iNurs5, CNA]

29 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

As a nurse you have an obligation to give every med ordered. If you don't you must chart a valid reason the medication was not given. Pt refusal is a valid reason. 

If the pt keeps refusing, do you just chart it and don't do anything? 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

4 minutes ago, Honyebee said:

If the pt keeps refusing, do you just chart it and don't do anything? 

I'm sure you've done this before? You chart what you did and notify the physician, then return the med to the pyxis. So yeah, pretty much. I guess, as CNA, if a pt refuses a bath at night or maybe a finger stick or viral signs (maybe they grumpy and want to be left alone), you would notify the nurse and go to the next pt. Works the same with everything.

[MunoRN, RN]

2 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Alright if you believe valid reasons not to inject a drug in one's body are OBJECTIVE, who is the observer that gets to decide the validity of a choice another person makes for themselves? 

Science.

[toomuchbaloney]

7 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

You are simply incorrect. The principle of informed consent requires both an informed pt, AND a consent from that pt. Refusal doesn't have to make sense. Maybe they don't trust the manufacturer. That is THEIR reason. You don't agree but their reason is valid to THEM, which makes it a valid reason by simply not consenting. Validity is relative to the pt, not you, not anyone else.

Dang.

The patient has a reason to refuse...

The nurse has a reason to not administer.

They are not the same.  

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

2 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Dang.

The patient has a reason to refuse...

The nurse has a reason to not administer.

They are not the same.  

No they aren't the same thing but they are tied together. The pt decides of a reason is valid. The nurse informs, the pt consents. The concept of informed consent didn't exist in the distant past even though it's common today. Let's not forget where we came from. The Nazi experiments on the Jews and the tuskegee experiment. These happened. They were horrific. Informed consent is vital. Let's not forget where we came from. 

[MunoRN, RN]

56 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

If a pt refuses, that's a valid reason. They have the right to consent or refuse. Period. A valid reason is "I refuse." In medicine that is a valid reason. Your side was demanding valid reasons to not get vacinated. Refusal is a valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason to not get vacinated.

I hope I said it enough times in enough ways to get you to realize we don't just go dismissing medical ethics because you think we should. You asked for valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason. Period. 

Patient's can refuse a medication but refusing doesn't make their reasoning for refusing "valid".  

And a refusal itself is not always valid, to administer a medication you need informed consent, but to refuse you need informed refusal.  If my CIWA patient says not to put the ativan in their IV because it's full of magical unicorns and I'm a wizard then that's not an informed refusal.

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

1 minute ago, MunoRN said:

Patient's can refuse a medication but refusing doesn't make their reasoning for refusing "valid".  

And a refusal itself is not always valid, to administer a medication you need informed consent, but to refuse you need informed refusal.  If my CIWA patient says not to put the ativan in their IV because it's full of magical unicorns and I'm a wizard then that's not an informed refusal.

Are you suggesting a pt of sound mind refusing is the same as a pt in withdrawal?

[toomuchbaloney]

3 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Are you suggesting a pt of sound mind refusing is the same as a pt in withdrawal?

Are you trying to confuse this issue? Your question is sort of silly given that it highlights the reality that patients employ all manner of flawed reasoning to refuse care...those reasons are not valid but they are honored.  

Nurses employ valued reasons to hold meds or treatments...as you've noted, one of those valid reasons is patient refusal (for unfounded fears, ignorance, conspiracy belief etc).