Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[Jtveal, NP]

1 hour ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

20 hours between calorie intake MINIMUM and minimize sugar intake (of course exception exception). I wish this was the message but our culture is built on a foundation of 3 meals a day. 

My apologies for getting this thread off topic. I was simply wanting to show the relationship of obesity/increased BMI with COVID19.

So to quickly address your ideology, it is halfway correct. Yes fasting, and intermittent fasting can have profound benefits on an individuals health. Yes, gluttony is a large issue facing much of industrialized countries today and our society along with marketing does not help this. However to say that everyone need 20hrs between meals regardless of type of food they are consuming is misplaced. An individual on a largely plant based diet consuming mainly carbohydrates will need to eat more frequently,  as carbohydrates metabolize in approx 2-5 hours. Whereas an individual on a higher fat diet including meat and diary can eat less often because fat and protein takes about 12hrs to metabolize. Both diets can result in weight loss and healthy BMIs but are fundamentally different. This is why in nature we observe herbivores constantly eating and see carnivores only eating a few meals a week. Most of longest lived and arguably healthiest population on earth generally eat multiple meals per day. Sadly in our society we eat large amounts of both fats and carbohydrates very frequently throughout the day. 

Since this thread is not about diet and obesity I will not elaborate further. I apologize if I inadvertently trolled this thread. If you care to discuss further and want me to provide supportive research articles we can create a separate thread. 

[iNurs5, CNA]

8 hours ago, Jtveal said:

I have read the past 50+ pages and have been throughly entertained. However, I must interject due to the quotes above. I know it is slightly off topic from the main objective of the thread but I want to ensure my fellow peers are educated on a largely overlooked/undervalued matter. Being overweight or obese could actually be affecting those around you due to possible increased contagiousness during the illness and possible decreased vaccine efficacy.

* Increased Contagiousness 

-This first article is pertaining to influenza but can largely be adapted to COVID19. According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00592-020-01522-8
"Three factors make obese subjects more contagious than leans: First, obese subjects with influenza shed the virus for a longer period of time (up to 104% longer) than lean subjects, potentially increasing the chance to spread the virus to others [22]. Secondly, the obese microenvironment favors the emergence of novel more virulent virus strains. This is due mainly to the reduced and delayed capacity to produce interferons by obese individuals and animals [17, 18]. The delay in producing interferon to contrast viral replication allows more viral RNA replication increasing the chances of the appearance of novel, more virulent viral strains [18]. Thirdly, body mass index correlates positively with infectious virus in exhaled breath [23]."

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32534848/ helps support this claim specifically for COVID19 

* Decreased Vaccine Efficacy

-Luckily real world studies, according to The Obesity Society (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-07-vaccine-guidance-obese.html), thus far have yet to find that the mRNA vaccines have been less effective in protecting obese patients. However, according to the studies below I believe the duration of protection could be compromised in obese patients.

-According to (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32305981)because obese individuals have a compromised immune system, they respond poorly to vaccination against influenza, hepatitis B, tetorifice, and rabies.

-These findings appear to carry over to COVID19 as well according to (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.24.21251664v1.full-text) which states, overweight and obese patients had a decreased capacity to mount humoral immune responses to the Pfizer vaccine compared lean patients.

I believe most of us who have worked closely with COVID19 patients in the hospital have seen the overwhelming large portion of the patient population to be overweight or obese. A fairly large meta-analysis (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34348687/) and the CDC (https://www.CDC.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm) strongly support that observational finding. My point is even with vaccination recommendations we need to strongly encourage and educate our patients about better diet and lifestyle changes. Most of the industrialized counties, especially US (https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm), were primed to have poor outcomes in a viral pandemic like COVID19 with how unhealthy our population has become. Sadly this pandemic should open the eyes of many individuals about how much overall health is important. Many of the nurses on here speak about how not being vaccinated is disturbing, but I also believe the statistic of '~54% of nurses in the US are overweight' to be disturbing. We are leaders in healthcare and our community,  we must practice what we teach.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1745-7599.2008.00319.x

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22033319/

Sorry plug made.... if anyone needs help with dietary advise let me know. 

LOL...My ex would tell you that dieting is irrelevant because there are people he knows who eat a lot but don't get overweight. He doesn't trust vaccines and medicines.

[jive turkey]

11 hours ago, MunoRN said:

A "valid" reason is objective, not subjective.

If you're trying to retreat from your original position, which was that there was objective data to support not getting vaccinated, then there are far more graceful ways to do that.  When people take their own personal time to engage in a discussion, and then you respond by suggesting they lack intelligence for responding to the objective arguments you were presenting by claiming you never said such things, you're falling a long ways from the expectations you seem to have of others.

Alright if you believe valid reasons not to inject a drug in one's body are OBJECTIVE, who is the observer that gets to decide the validity of a choice another person makes for themselves? 

[toomuchbaloney]

6 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Alright if you believe valid reasons not to inject a drug in one's body are OBJECTIVE, who is the observer that gets to decide the validity of a choice another person makes for themselves? 

The same way you measure validity of any argument...you measure it against the available facts, evidence and expert analysis of the subject.  

[jive turkey]

10 hours ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

"Here sir I have this medicine for you." 

"I don't want it. I refuse."

"That's fine sir, do you..."

"I know all about it, you people told me all about it. I don't want to hear anymore I don't want it. I refuse."

"Well sir I understand that but unless you give me A VALID reason I'm afraid you are required to take this medication."

-the future of nursing. 

EXACTLY!

how is anyone going to say valid reasons to take a drug or not are ", objective"

Perfect example @10GaugeNeedles

How would you like that @MunoRN???

[jive turkey]

9 hours ago, Jtveal said:

I have read the past 50+ pages and have been throughly entertained. However, I must interject due to the quotes above. I know it is slightly off topic from the main objective of the thread but I want to ensure my fellow peers are educated on a largely overlooked/undervalued matter. Being overweight or obese could actually be affecting those around you due to possible increased contagiousness during the illness and possible decreased vaccine efficacy.

* Increased Contagiousness 

-This first article is pertaining to influenza but can largely be adapted to COVID19. According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00592-020-01522-8
"Three factors make obese subjects more contagious than leans: First, obese subjects with influenza shed the virus for a longer period of time (up to 104% longer) help with dietary advise let me know. .....

Thank you for sharing that, and shutting that down!

[toomuchbaloney]

3 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

EXACTLY!

how is anyone going to say valid reasons to take a drug or not are ", objective"

Perfect example @10GaugeNeedles

How would you like that @MunoRN???

Of course you would elevate and praise a misrepresentation, it's a pattern of behavior. 

2 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Thank you for sharing that, and shutting that down!

You are confused.  Deflecting to obesity is shutting nothing down.  

[iNurs5, CNA]

I live in a large home approximately 4000 square feet with large yards and big swimming pool. The owner had an ex who lived in this house. She brought many people in when the boy was with the biological mother. It was great. She understood the safety concerns. She cleaned everything. But, she eventually caught COVID-19 from her party buddies who didn't reveal it. She found out later from other social networks. They didn't isolate when they were told to do so. They were paid to stay home instead went out and partied in houses. A few of them landed in hospital beds. It was over a year ago. I told them it wasn't a sure thing that the viruses were exterminated according to the medical journals I read and background knowledge. Over a year later, here we go.

They didn't listen to me because I only wipe butts and bring food and water. I certainly didn't get in that main house. I'm here in the Casita. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

1 hour ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Of course you would elevate and praise a misrepresentation, it's a pattern of behavior. 

You are confused.  Deflecting to obesity is shutting nothing down.  

If a pt refuses, that's a valid reason. They have the right to consent or refuse. Period. A valid reason is "I refuse." In medicine that is a valid reason. Your side was demanding valid reasons to not get vacinated. Refusal is a valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason to not get vacinated.

I hope I said it enough times in enough ways to get you to realize we don't just go dismissing medical ethics because you think we should. You asked for valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason. Period. 

[iNurs5, CNA]

Some people need to be told what to do starting from making up their bed in the morning. ? 

[toomuchbaloney]

19 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

If a pt refuses, that's a valid reason. They have the right to consent or refuse. Period. A valid reason is "I refuse." In medicine that is a valid reason. Your side was demanding valid reasons to not get vacinated. Refusal is a valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason to not get vacinated.

I hope I said it enough times in enough ways to get you to realize we don't just go dismissing medical ethics because you think we should. You asked for valid reason. Refusal is a valid reason. Period. 

A person can refuse based upon any reasoning and frequently that reasoning is invalid, as discussed and demonstrated in this thread.  No, just because they get to decline doesn't mean that their reason to decline is objectively valid. You can repeat wrong thinking or flawed logic as often as you prefer, that doesn't make it sound or valid.  That's not how it works. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

1 minute ago, toomuchbaloney said:

A person can refuse based upon any reasoning and frequently that reasoning is invalid, as discussed and demonstrated in this thread.  No, just because they get to decline doesn't mean that their reason to decline is objectively valid. You can repeat wrong thinking or flawed logic as often as you prefer, that doesn't make it sound or valid.  That's not how it works. 

As a nurse you have an obligation to give every med ordered. If you don't you must chart a valid reason the medication was not given. Pt refusal is a valid reason.