Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[toomuchbaloney]

50 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Your strawman has nothing to do with my statement. Freedom is still, and always will be worth everything. I guarantee that veteran would agree with the premise.

Guess what. If there wasn't so much team sport stuff in this debate, maybe the vaccination rates would be higher. If there wasn't so much mixed messaging from government, maybe their would be less distrust. Media ite is extremely blue partisan and biased. You go to the Washington free beacon, you'll see counter stories of vaccine injury. The story would translate to "the corrupt state is trying to kill your children with dangerous vaccines." 

What do you want? I'm not ever supporting totalitarianism. I don't care what the story or argument is. 

So which team are you on? I'm on the team that uses scientifically sound, credible and accountable sources to promote vaccination of all eligible adults in effort to get past the pandemic, protect our health system and return to a prepandemic economy. 

How many people have been hospitalized for covid vaccine adverse events?

Also the Washington Free Beacon is not an accurate or reliable source of information. It works if you are seeking politically biased content using inflammatory language while reporting inaccuracies. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

11 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

So which team are you on? I'm on the team that usesuses scientifically sound, credible and accountable sources to promote vaccination of all eligible adults in effort to get past the pandemic, protect our health system and return to a prepandemic economy. 

How many people have been hospitalized for covid vaccine adverse events?

I'm in the middle. Not red or blue. I'm on the anti mrna team. As soon as Novavax comes out I'll take it. 

If nobody calls it a vaccine injury, it will be ignored in the data. We don't know how many have been injured. VAERS is dismissed as worthless. Allot of people are screaming to be heard. But they are ignored. 

I didn't say WFB was credible. I said media ite is biased and WFB would give similar heart wrenching stories, but in the opposite direction. 

[toomuchbaloney]

3 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

I'm in the middle. Not red or blue. I'm on the anti mrna team. As soon as Novavax comes out I'll take it. 

If nobody calls it a vaccine injury, it will be ignored in the data. We don't know how many have been injured. VAERS is dismissed as worthless. Allot of people are screaming to be heard. But they are ignored. 

So the team comment was just hyperbole and cataloging of members who promote vaccination? 

It sounds like you don't trust health providers to assess patients for evidence of vaccine harm.  Who told you that VAERS is useless? I think you misunderstood the explanation.  VAERS has value as a comprehensive database.  Random capture of VAERS reports and attempts to assign correlation or causation without proper context and supporting medical records is worthless. 

Lots of the people screaming to be heard during this pandemic have been wackos and grifters. You've cited a couple of them to support your own beliefs.

[jive turkey]

2 hours ago, MunoRN said:

Handwashing is not without adverse effects, and I've often wondered if the much of the attempts to rationalize opposition to vaccines was just so people wouldn't have to admit they are too afraid of needles to get vaccinated, which at one point I thought sounded silly.

People here are free to disagree with you without you attempting to badger them into thinking that isn't allowed, that's a bullying behavior and shouldn't be tolerated.

 

1. it's not 9 months old.  it's not as invasive as a drug.  your hand washing reference is a bad exampl.e I'm moving off that

2. Munro, please read very carefully what I type and not spin it so poorly. You've done that a few times already. My objection to that poster was the use of inflammatory language to disagree.  It's hard to enjoy the thrill of debating if someone doesn't disagree.  OK?

1 hour ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

Human rights violations are not the same as vaccine mandates.

Frankly I am disappointed and disgusted at that comparison.

AGAIN (echo)))))))  Refusing a shot and quitting a job is not akin to losing your human and constitutional rights.

Yea, I said they don't compare the very first sentence.  The comparison wasn't human rights to vaccines.  I used that to show how people abuse the word "choice" to make forceful decisions sound delicate.  

[BostonFNP, APRN]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

I didn't and don't plan to watch Pandemic.  Sounds like an extremist video from what I heard about it.

The information you cited is what the CDC said was their reasoning for it.  That may or may not be true.  Just because they said that doesn't mean someone should just believe it and leave it alone.  By the way, they succeeded in acquiring a patent on it.  Another pharm company applied for a patent similarly shortly thereafter.  Turns out this has been common practice.  I'm not just picking on the CDC.  Does it not give you concern this is a practice?

What other arguments have I presented that you can counter with statistics?  I'm receptive.

 

Where did you hear about the this 2003 patent recently then? 
 

It was common practice prior to 2013; it hasn’t been a practice since then. It gives me zero concern now; I had a lot of concern prior to 2013. 

[guest1163268]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

I didn't and don't plan to watch Pandemic.  Sounds like an extremist video from what I heard about it.

The information you cited is what the CDC said was their reasoning for it.  That may or may not be true.  Just because they said that doesn't mean someone should just believe it and leave it alone.  By the way, they succeeded in acquiring a patent on it.  Another pharm company applied for a patent similarly shortly thereafter.  Turns out this has been common practice.  I'm not just picking on the CDC.  Does it not give you concern this is a practice?

What other arguments have I presented that you can counter with statistics?  I'm receptive.

 

And why shouldn't they apply for a patent as disgusting as it maybe! It's the legal system that is the problem. 

My father frequently has to go to Delaware to fight big cooperations, always trying to game the system or bully the little guy and you will not believe the incompetence of the judges hearing the cases. No engineering knowledge, either chemical or physical, because frequently they are politically appointed by the very companies funding their courts in some tangential way. And let either Dupont or an affiliate be involved and you can practically see the bias! However, you have to fight what's in front of you with objectivity and logic, using the tools that you have. 

As nurses we should be steeped in science because our very practices are evidenced based. All of your arguments are subjective and emotional re freedoms and rights, which should not be applicable to the vaccines. 

Do you have any idea how many entities are legally liable from the production to the administration of the vaccine? Do you really think all of those people in disparate professions and jobs are engaged in a CONSPIRACY, to do WHAT EXACTLY? You have the Dems currently at odds with each other and they are on the same team! What is the conspiracy about? 

Targeting republicans? Induce inflation and humble America? Even a science fiction writer couldn't come up with a reasonable plot for your supposition? But you won't accept the responsibility that you could be influencing people on the fence and their circle, that may cause their deaths! 

This is not a movie! There are real life consequences for the vulnerable and I am absolutely sure that your views are also affecting people in your own life and I wonder what are the consequences for them? 

[jive turkey]

8 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

Where did you hear about the this 2003 patent recently then? 
 

It was common practice prior to 2013; it hasn’t been a practice since then. It gives me zero concern now; I had a lot of concern prior to 2013. 

Allow me to clarify what all the patent discussion is about so we aren't bantering back n forth about the finer details of patents.

Whenever money is involved there is a risk for corruption.

We now have a product that has potential for requiring indefinite boosters being sold for profit with mandates by governments and institutions.  

We should hope to be fortunate enough the strategy of mandating drugs won't be abused or exploited as a means to achieve consistent and significant financial gains by the greedy.  

If what I'm saying borders conspiracy theory from your perspective let me further elaborate why I have concerns when money is involved in health care.  I'm sure you've witnessed countless occasions someone was denied care, received inferior care, or had it cut short because of the insurance companies.  Those are fine examples where profits are put ahead of patients.  

I don't see vaccines as being exempt from the same challenges.  It doesn't mean the vaccine is without its benefits.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't keep our eyes peeled and ask questions.

[klone, MSN, RN]

Didn't get the vaccine because he already got Covid and didn't think he could get sick. This is one of the Denver Broncos coaches. Now he is urging everyone to please get vaccinated, even if you have already had Covid.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/colorado-fitness-coach-covid-19-vaccine/73-174c9d51-97ed-4693-b208-c4a2100d0666?fbclid=IwAR1dxAFXYhpev1IXzvlL9dj3aZM62ceGz5evT5q1HbKahSAHJs6TFlC0nA

A very good friend of mine has a similar story - got Covid last Winter, didn't think she needed the vaccine. Got sick again this past Spring. She has been living in the ICU for the last 2 months. She was on ECMO for 6 weeks. There were a few points where we were sure she was not going to make it through the night. They have finally decannulated (right term?) her about a week ago. Now she has a LOOONG road ahead. She may need bilateral lung transplants. She's on dialysis. Her heart is damaged. 

There are hundreds of other stories just like these. 

[BostonFNP, APRN]

12 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Allow me to clarify what all the patent discussion is about so we aren't bantering back n forth about the finer details of patents.

Whenever money is involved there is a risk for corruption.

We now have a product that has potential for requiring indefinite boosters being sold for profit with mandates by governments and institutions.  

We should hope to be fortunate enough the strategy of mandating drugs won't be abused or exploited as a means to achieve consistent and significant financial gains by the greedy.  

If what I'm saying borders conspiracy theory from your perspective let me further elaborate why I have concerns when money is involved in health care.  I'm sure you've witnessed countless occasions someone was denied care, received inferior care, or had it cut short because of the insurance companies.  Those are fine examples where profits are put ahead of patients.  

I don't see vaccines as being exempt from the same challenges.  It doesn't mean the vaccine is without its benefits.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't keep our eyes peeled and ask questions.

You didn’t explain where you recently heard about a patent from 2003. 

Private companies develop and manufacture the vaccination (there are 172 covid vaccines in development/use). The government independently regulates those vaccines and makes recommendations. I have never seen evidence of widespread corruption in this process. I don’t seem the direct line of financial concern: Company A, B, and C make a vaccine. Company D mandates that employees get any of the vaccines. Where does the corruption occur? If the federal government mandates vaccination, where is the financial tie to the three companies that make the vaccines? You’d have to be assuming that there was a secret widespread corruption of big Pharma into the federal government. Hence the conspiracy. 
 

Insurance companies cut costs wherever they can both on the patient and the payor side of the equation. But this is not even in the same ballpark as what you are suggesting about vaccines. 
 

Again, you brought his up based on a patent in 2003 which is no longer applicable to the current patent law and has nothing to do with covid-19. 

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:56 AM, jive turkey said:

We didn't just  learn the effects of handwashing 9 months ago.  

You are not injecting washing in your body.  

Everyone agrees there are requirements to do the job safely.  Not all things are the same Munro. You can't equate hand washing to injectables. 

And we didn't learn about the vaccine 9 months ago either.  You do realize that there were Phase I, II and III studies done first?  Yesterday I was watching an old Law and Order that was released in 2003 and the story was about a SARS 2 corona virus research lab in NYC.  This retroscope is looking back 18 years!  So no, scientists didn't start from scratch in 2019 when this pandemic virus was isolated.  SARS 2 was already well known enemy.  More lies.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

14 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Allow me to clarify what all the patent discussion is about so we aren't bantering back n forth about the finer details of patents.

Whenever money is involved there is a risk for corruption.

We now have a product that has potential for requiring indefinite boosters being sold for profit with mandates by governments and institutions.  

We should hope to be fortunate enough the strategy of mandating drugs won't be abused or exploited as a means to achieve consistent and significant financial gains by the greedy.  

If what I'm saying borders conspiracy theory from your perspective let me further elaborate why I have concerns when money is involved in health care.  I'm sure you've witnessed countless occasions someone was denied care, received inferior care, or had it cut short because of the insurance companies.  Those are fine examples where profits are put ahead of patients.  

I don't see vaccines as being exempt from the same challenges.  It doesn't mean the vaccine is without its benefits.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't keep our eyes peeled and ask questions.

So because we live in a capitalistic society where drug companies are given free reign over the costs of their products, we shouldn't get vaccinated because it's a plot by a drug company to make money?  Show me the logic in that.  If you don't like the way drug companies operate, make laws to limit capitalism.  BUT, these companies, with government money, operated around the clock to develop a vaccine that is our only way of getting out of this mess.  So we should stay unvaxxed because you don't like the way they do business with other drugs?  

[heron, ASN, RN]

58 minutes ago, subee said:

So because we live in a capitalistic society where drug companies are given free reign over the costs of their products, we shouldn't get vaccinated because it's a plot by a drug company to make money?  Show me the logic in that.  If you don't like the way drug companies operate, make laws to limit capitalism.  BUT, these companies, with government money, operated around the clock to develop a vaccine that is our only way of getting out of this mess.  So we should stay unvaxxed because you don't like the way they do business with other drugs?  

By that logic, no one should ever take regeneron.