Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

5 minutes ago, Curious1997 said:

Sometimes I wonder if you folks are suffering from a form of OCD manifesting as a political release, as religion is sometimes apt to be?

OCD is frequently the result of trauma that was relieved by the repetitive behavior or words etc. It's not productive. I've noticed antivaxxers, religious and Republicans etc, exhibit the same tendencies. Irrational thoughts with little basis in reality triggered by a catalyst of a person or a message, that resonates and amplifies their insecurities. It exemplifies delusional content. 

Just as a psychotic person can manipulate reality to suit the delusional content to rationalize the narrative, I see exactly the same behaviors in anti vaxxers, religious and right wingers! No offense intended, but the intelligence factor must be questioned. Lower, minimally educated social classes exhibit the same tendencies to make sense of their world, as does manipulative people shaping narratives. 

It's why they promote their agendas to the gullible. Ivermectin, the most recent example! The same crowd who gave credence to sunlight and bleach and HCQ etc. Gullible! Believe information from the most obviously corrupt people! The limited range to express their frustrations, except through anger or violence. The relief to accept doubling down as a viable alternative, instead of trying reality, because they don't care about their credibility. 

All pathological expressions! 

Well maybe if the lancet hadn't screwed up by publishing that article, maybe we'd actually know the benefits of plaquenil better than we do. All I've seen from your side is contempt, self certainty, and a complete lack of empathy.

Since we are diagnosing people with psych disorders, explain the origin of your narcissism if you would. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

5 hours ago, Curious1997 said:

You are an I***t! 

Why don't you drive through the red lights? We all understand that without rules there would be chaos and what's worse it's the unthinking like you that could never function without rules! 

If you don't like the rules of society, GET OUT! 

REMOVE YOURSELF FROM SOCIETY! 

I'm not going anywhere. 

[BostonFNP, APRN]

10 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Today its the covid vaccine, but what about tomorrow? We risk setting a trend of using jobs, retirement plans, shopping, dining and travel to manipulate someone to accept a product. 

This is an example of utter BS. The entire statement is built around a logical fallacy. 

6 hours ago, jive turkey said:

What's "utter BS" is how anytime you and several others here are presented with a diferent viewpoint you lose your cool and respond with inflammatory language. 

I have objectively responded to posts in this thread with data and facts. Here again in an example of another logical fallacy.  

Let me tell you several other things that are "utter BS"?

People looking at this issue through toilet paper rolls.  It's not just about the vaccine. 

It's not about "the vaccine" (there are lots of them) but the thread is about the all of things related to covid vaccination. Here are some of those things:

1. Life and death: Covid vaccinations have irrefutable evidence in reducing the risk of dying from covid without serious risk of vaccine injury.

2. Hospitalization and morbidity: Covid vaccinations have irrefutable evidence in reducing the risk of moderate to severe illness resulting in hospitalization and serious complications. The healthcare system is being stressed by the unvaccinated and (in some areas) there people with other life-threatening illness being turned away. Additionally, there is a huge financial burden associated with this: based on current data (daily new admissions 12,297, avg cost of stay=$55,000) covid is costing the system 676 million dollars a day. 

Talking about vaccines like they're all the same and the strategy should be the same using "we did it like this since the 1800s" as an argument.  

That's not the argument, it's the precedent. The precedent of mandates of vaccines upheld by the Supreme Court more than 100 years ago. The precedent of 200 years of vaccine safety and efficacy. 

Acting like there's no profit motive behind drugs that risk corruption. We should just take our jabs n shut up,  the government is always looking out for our individual best interest.  When the CDC and pharmaceutical companies are putting patents on viruses you gotta ask questions and be concerned. Maybe innocent, maybe not. 

Are pharma companies making profit from the vaccine? Sure. This is what privatization does, and the argument is that it drives innovation and competition which lowers the cost to us, thee consumer. The alternative would be for the government to have created the vaccine as some other countries did (Russia, China), would you trust it more then? 

Shunning anyone that doubts or is willing to challenge authority. Vaccine passport, you serious?

What is the problem with a vaccine passport? I'm not in favor of them, but I am unsure what the problem with them really is. 

I believe many people behind the push for vaccines are doing so for the right reasons.  I KNOW it can help.  I don't beleive anytime someone has a concern you don't agree with you need to call it "utter BS". Saying you "totally disagree" like before was enough. 

One can disagree with a specific and reasonable viewpoint. Non-specific fatally flawed reasoning is something that you can't just disagree with. 

Come correct or don't quote me  

Drop the bravado it just weakens your position.

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

15 hours ago, subee said:

 

14 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Without speaking entirely on that posters behalf but sharing their sentiment for concern:

We have those who insist the vaccine is safe but acknowledge no vaccine is risk free.  The counter to that is,  how does one insist another person be compelled to take a drug on the basis of safety when they're in no position to resolve any issues for the drug recipient should they suffer from a reaction or side effect?

 

If we had such risk-aversion, we'd still have polio, measles, diptheria, pertussus, whooping cough, flu epidemics, varicella, shingles, rabies and smallpox.  No one is compelling anyone to take a vaccine so please stop with that lie.  Some nurses will just have to find another career.  AND, they won't be able to collect unemployment benefits  (According to Nicole Marquez, director of social insurance for the National Employment Law Project.  And it will surely become more universal, if they do find a job with health insurance, they will have to pay a premium every month to cover the employer's costs for covid hospital admissions.  

 

[BostonFNP, APRN]

1 hour ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Well maybe if the lancet hadn't screwed up by publishing that article, maybe we'd actually know the benefits of plaquenil better than we do.

I don't follow the rationale here; I assume you refer to the Brigham & Womens study that was retracted?

We know a lot about the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in covid treatment; it has been extensively studied in more than 100 quality RCTs. It has been demonstrated to be ineffective and associated with higher overall mortality. The only reason people talk about HCQ/CQ in regards to covid is because of politicians and biased media outlets.

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

29 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

This is an example of utter BS. The entire statement is built around a logical fallacy. 

 

If I still lived in NYC, I would be relieved to see vaccine passports.  I'd ride public transportation, go out to eat, go to a concert, travel - in other words, contribute to the economy.  YOU could do all these things in places that don't require vaccines.  They will still exist because they will get business for a little while but the rate of infections in their establishments will be multiples higher than in the competition so I don't think they could stay open very long.  . Vaccine passports are here to stay until we can prove that they raise infection rates.  If people can't control their  impulses to control Covid or any other highly infective disease, someone or something will take over to keep them separated from those that choose safety.

[jive turkey]

5 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

1. Drop the bravado it just weakens your position.

2. The alternative would be for the government to have created the vaccine as some other countries did (Russia, China), would you trust it more then? 

3.That's not the argument, it's the precedent.

4. It's not about "the vaccine" (there are lots of them) but the thread is about the all of things related to covid vaccination. Here are some of those things:

5. I have objectively responded to posts in this thread with data and facts

1.  Once you resort to inflammatory language, your points stoop to the back woods, hee-haw "I ain't takin no vaccination"  anti-vaxxer level.  Respectful communication goes a long way.  I know you're a smart person by your title.  You need not succumb to emotional outbursts.

2. My point was, when isolated viruses are being patented, and there is a potential relationship between a private company, the CDC, and the government it makes sense to be aware and consider the possibilities.  There's another thread in the COVID section that explains better.

3. There was no dispute about the history of mandates.  The point is, not all diseases and vaccines are the same so the strategy shouldn't be the same.  You even acknowledged its a difficult argument to mandate the vaccine for the previously infected yet they are subject to the mandate too.

4. Yes, it is about vaccination and reasons there are those who are hesitant or may feel it's not for them.  The data you shared is not disputed (by me at least). See #3

5. Stick to facts and save the outbursts.  It distracts from the facts.  There's things that you and others say that I may think is BS but calling you out that way breaks down communication.  

 

[SmilingBluEyes]

1 minute ago, jive turkey said:

1.  Once you resort to inflammatory language, your points stoop to the back woods, hee-haw "I ain't takin no vaccination"  anti-vaxxer level.  Respectful communication goes a long way.  I know you're a smart person by your title.  You need not succumb to emotional outbursts.

2. My point was, when isolated viruses are being patented, and there is a potential relationship between a private company, the CDC, and the government it makes sense to be aware and consider the possibilities.  There's another thread in the COVID section that explains better.

3. There was no dispute about the history of mandates.  The point is, not all diseases and vaccines are the same so the strategy shouldn't be the same.  You even acknowledged its a difficult argument to mandate the vaccine for the previously infected yet they are subject to the mandate too.

4. Yes, it is about vaccination and reasons there are those who are hesitant or may feel it's not for them.  The data you shared is not disputed (by me at least). See #3

5. Stick to facts and save the outbursts.  It distracts from the facts.  There's things that you and others say that I may think is BS but calling you out that way breaks down communication.  

 

What outburst? There was none. I see a calm and reasonable post that you quoted.

[guest1163268]

40 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

1.  Once you resort to inflammatory language, your points stoop to the back woods, hee-haw "I ain't takin no vaccination"  anti-vaxxer level.  Respectful communication goes a long way.  I know you're a smart person by your title.  You need not succumb to emotional outbursts.

2. My point was, when isolated viruses are being patented, and there is a potential relationship between a private company, the CDC, and the government it makes sense to be aware and consider the possibilities.  There's another thread in the COVID section that explains better.

3. There was no dispute about the history of mandates.  The point is, not all diseases and vaccines are the same so the strategy shouldn't be the same.  You even acknowledged its a difficult argument to mandate the vaccine for the previously infected yet they are subject to the mandate too.

4. Yes, it is about vaccination and reasons there are those who are hesitant or may feel it's not for them.  The data you shared is not disputed (by me at least). See #3

5. Stick to facts and save the outbursts.  It distracts from the facts.  There's things that you and others say that I may think is BS but calling you out that way breaks down communication.  

 

You are such a hypocrite! You are always emotional and inflammatory. 

You obtain news and data from dubious sources, then further contaminate it with your subjective issues of anger and anti this and that etc. Then, regurgitate wild suppositions and hope your gaslighting that works with your limited circle, might also work here! 

We live in the real world and have real world problems, not conjecture and conspiracy! We have to by training and legal consequences, engage in protocol and scientific evidence or we are subject to disciplinary actions from many sources. Plus we have pride and integrity and normal people around us who don't tolerate silliness! 

Go gaslight your own silly, uninformed peeps because it doesn't fly here! 

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

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[BostonFNP, APRN]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

1.  Once you resort to inflammatory language, your points stoop to the back woods, hee-haw "I ain't takin no vaccination"  anti-vaxxer level.  Respectful communication goes a long way.  I know you're a smart person by your title.  You need not succumb to emotional outbursts.

2. My point was, when isolated viruses are being patented, and there is a potential relationship between a private company, the CDC, and the government it makes sense to be aware and consider the possibilities.  There's another thread in the COVID section that explains better.

3. There was no dispute about the history of mandates.  The point is, not all diseases and vaccines are the same so the strategy shouldn't be the same.  You even acknowledged its a difficult argument to mandate the vaccine for the previously infected yet they are subject to the mandate too.

4. Yes, it is about vaccination and reasons there are those who are hesitant or may feel it's not for them.  The data you shared is not disputed (by me at least). See #3

5. Stick to facts and save the outbursts.  It distracts from the facts.  There's things that you and others say that I may think is BS but calling you out that way breaks down communication.  

 

There was no emotional outburst from me; maybe you need to self reflect a bit. My “points” are driven by data and rational thought.

You are sliding pretty steadily into the land of conspiracy theory and an old one at that. Start your reading  with Association for Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics. You are barking up a long dead tree.

If you are hesitant and your private company has a mandate you are free to work elsewhere or if there are vaccine passports required, move elsewhere. 

 

 

 

 

 

[guest1163268]

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We live in times where a few ignorant people living in some alternative reality, are jeopardizing our lives and way of living because they are unaware of their ignorance or deliberately setting out to muddy the facts! 

The reason they do this is because people are too polite and unwilling to call them out on their gaslighting! And when they are called out, they go crying to mommy. 

The issue is too important as evidenced by the possible deaths of maybe a million people if the peripherals are taken into consideration. 

There is a well known behavioral therapy called negative reinforcement that is almost biological in its invention! 

Stove..... Fire..... Hot.... Burnt hands..... Future - Caution!!