Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[jive turkey]

25 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

1.Re-infection is rare just like breakthrough infections are rare. I don’t think anyone is debating that, at least from what I have seen. Where the line is between the two is gray, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
 

2.From my perspective there are two things we do know that help guide us here: 1. There is ample evidence that even single vaccine dose markedly increases antibody titers and 2. there is a growing body of evidence on both natural and vaccine generated immunity suffers from time evolution decay. This is not as big of a problem for the vaccinated as they can/will get boosters but those with natural immunity (in all likelihood) will need to have their antibody titers re-established and that can happen via reinfection or by vaccine.  

3.I totally disagree with you about substance abuse. Substance abuse is an illness just like hypertension or diabetes. To call it personal choice is unacceptable. 

4. Diet, for some, maybe be comparable, while for others, less so. First off, one person’s diet does not directly put others at risk. Second, for some it is a choice, for others it is a necessity. A poor diet is very closely tied with socioeconomic status. 
 

5.Pfizer’s vaccine has full approval; there is no evidence in  I’m sure you agree then that those hospitalized with covid should not be receiving tax-funded “experimental” or novel treatments?

 

1.In this thread, people (not you necessarily) argued that rare reinfections and a lack of hospitalizations/deaths among reinfected aren't valid reasons for someone to defer vaccination.  Their perspective is take the vaccine regardless.

2.  You're not wrong with that fact.  The following isn't necessarily directed toward you:

Here's where I see a potential double standard or at least a confusing message.  Increased antibodies are used as an argument to favor vaccinating even the previously infected.  But then experts say antibody testing is not enough to determine immunity.  How do we use antibody titers to justify the vaccine while being dismissive of antibodies of the previously infected?  

I take what they're saying to mean, they don't want unvaccinated people to assume they have the best protection possible.  Using antibodies as an argument as mentioned, seems slightly contradictory.

3. We might get off topic with that one so I won't go there.  I half way agree with you, half don't.

4. I'd have to see you in a different thread on that because I again agree and disagree.  We would get off topic

5. That's up to the providers, patient, and whoever sponsors it.  As a provider, I know you already know the procedures for experimental drugs.  Maybe I misunderstood you on that point.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

12 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

1.In this thread, people (not you necessarily) argued that rare reinfections and a lack of hospitalizations/deaths among reinfected aren't valid reasons for someone to defer vaccination.  Their perspective is take the vaccine regardless.

2.  You're not wrong with that fact.  The following isn't necessarily directed toward you:

Here's where I see a potential double standard or at least a confusing message.  Increased antibodies are used as an argument to favor vaccinating even the previously infected.  But then experts say antibody testing is not enough to determine immunity.  How do we use antibody titers to justify the vaccine while being dismissive of antibodies of the previously infected?  

I take what they're saying to mean, they don't want unvaccinated people to assume they have the best protection possible.  Using antibodies as an argument as mentioned, seems slightly contradictory.

I think that requiring vaccination of those with prior infections is a more difficult argument than the unvaccinated. I’m not sure it’s a completely “valid” reason to not be vaccinated but it may be a reasonable argument to delay vaccination. I say this for the lay public. I feel healthcare professionals should be vaccinated regardless give the exposure and transmission risk vs the genpop.

We don’t have enough data to determine a titer level for immunity while in a pandemic setting, below herd immunity threshold. Titers are a reasonable academic way to estimate infection risk. Remember that argument works both ways: if you want to say you are immune because you have IgG antibodies then you should also want to do everything you can to boost those antibodies up.  

 

 

[jive turkey]

4 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

1.I think that requiring vaccination of those with prior infections is a more difficult argument than the unvaccinated.

2I’m not sure it’s a completely “valid” reason to not be vaccinated but it may be a reasonable argument to delay vaccination. I say this for the lay public.

3. I feel healthcare professionals should be vaccinated regardless give the exposure and transmission risk vs the genpop.

4.if you want to say you are immune because you have IgG antibodies then you should also want to do everything you can to boost those antibodies up.  

 

 

1. Agreed

2. Fair enough.  From my POV, validity in this regard is in the eye of the beholder.  There were many in this thread disputing what someone can consider valid for themselves.

3. That's understandable.  The challenge we have is some governments and many employers are denying a choice 

4. I don't totally disagree with that.  There's a choice between taking risks either way whether it's a new vaccine or relying on ones natural immunity.

Increased antibodies, possible reduced chance for spread, possibly milder symptoms with infection  vs lack of reinfected people hospitalized, dying, and emerging studies showing the adequacy or superiority of natural immunity.   Same challenge as #3  

[toomuchbaloney]

20 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

That's understandable.  The challenge we have is some governments and many employers are denying a choice 

Nope.

Some people just have to choose between their jobs and vaccination. Or they have to choose between college and vaccination, or flying, or going into some businesses, or...you get the point.  It's a choice. 

[guest1163268]

We seem to have a few people here that are antivaxxers, I was just wondering what are the consequences if a nurse surreptitiously nudges someone to take a medication or do something detrimental to their health? 

We all know about giving the wrong meds or other forms of negligence, but advocating for a not approved medical solution, what are the consequences, aside from civil actions etc? 

When does the board get involved etc? 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

13 hours ago, subee said:

Well, look at the states that are most overwhelmed with Covid.   Alabama, Mississippi. Louisiana and Texas all rank in the bottom half of educational ranking, the first two being the lowest.  

Geeze mr. You sure are smart! I wanna be like you when I grow up. New yorkers are so smart. I bet when Winter hits nobody will have covid cause they all been vaccinated! Geeze mr. You make it look all so ez! 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

8 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Nope.

Some people just have to choose between their jobs and vaccination. Or they have to choose between college and vaccination, or flying, or going into some businesses, or...you get the point.  It's a choice. 

Yep. It's a choice. Like "you want this builet? It's your choice ya know. You want this builet or this injection?. It's entirely up to you. Take this shot or feeding yourself. It's entirely up to you." What is wrong with you people? 

[toomuchbaloney]

5 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Yep. It's a choice. Like "you want this builet? It's your choice ya know. You want this builet or this injection?. It's entirely up to you. Take this shot or feeding yourself. It's entirely up to you." What is wrong with you people? 

Who is being threatened with violence if they don't vaccinate? Is this hyperbole or more sarcasm? 

[jive turkey]

12 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Yep. It's a choice. Like "you want this builet? It's your choice ya know. You want this builet or this injection?. It's entirely up to you. Take this shot or feeding yourself. It's entirely up to you." What is wrong with you people? 

They're using the word "choice" to justify having a rigid perspective about the issue. 

Whether or not it's a choice isn't as an important as what are the choices. 

I think people are failing to see the bigger picture here.  Today its the covid vaccine, but what about tomorrow? We risk setting a trend of using jobs, retirement plans, shopping, dining and travel to manipulate someone to accept a product. 

[BostonFNP, APRN]

8 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Yep. It's a choice. You want this builet or this injection? It's entirely up to you.

This part is really kind of true for a lot of folks. I’m not sure that’s the point you wanted to make but it rings true: vaccine or risk death. 
 

 

[BostonFNP, APRN]

1 minute ago, jive turkey said:

I think people are failing to see the bigger picture here.  Today its the covid vaccine, but what about tomorrow? We risk setting a trend of using jobs, retirement plans, shopping, dining and travel to manipulate someone to accept a product. 

This is utter BS. Vaccination mandates date back to the 1800s. It’s not about protecting a product it’s about protecting people, our people, as well as our economy, budget, employment, etc. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

6 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

This part is really kind of true for a lot of folks. I’m not sure that’s the point you wanted to make but it rings true: vaccine or risk death. 
 

 

Back in the 19 thirties, many people were given a similar ultimatum. Remember your history, or reap the same fate.