Unvaccinated: Indefensible

[guest1168940]

The choice to not take the COVID vaccine I feel is not defendable. The facts are that 99% of hospitalizations/deaths due to COVID are unvaccinated patients currently. This has caused a more severe strain on a already extremely stressed hospital staff, shortage of equipment and services, injury and death from other causes due to delay of care and suffering of everyone involved in the hospitalized COVID patient among other issues. Virologists report delta and other strains are accelerated and created due to the numbers of unvaccinated people in the US. The fact that vaccination rates have only increased about 20% since July with the information available is appalling, while there are 130k new infections daily in the US. This should not be a personal or individual choice and appears due to unfounded anxiety, medical or religious exception and or politics. 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

9 hours ago, RKM2021 said:

You bring up past history when it suits you I will do the same. 

At least TMB brought up something from this July, not from 2020 which, in these times of rapidly evolving science, is ancient news.  Also, writing in sentences would help AND no one has to butt out of a forum.  If you don't want people to comment, don't post it.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

1 hour ago, RJMDilts said:

I know the county I worked EMS for before becoming an RN started having a wellness program and insurance premium rates went up for folks who did not make progress in lowering A1C, losing weight, lowering BP,etc. You are spot on. Until things like this become a priority, it's like fingers in holes in a dike springing leaks, although we are probably past that point with the guy running out of fingers to plug all the holes already.

You must live under a tock  if you think there isn't a full-on war against obesity.  Repubs ridiculed Michelle Obama for highlighting the problem of childhood obesity and what to do about it.

Conservatives dig into Michelle Obama's anti-obesity campaign - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

The last time I went into my orthopod's office, there was a sign in the examining room that patients wanting joint replacements would have to first lose enough weight to conform to the upper BMI limits before surgery could be done.  I gave him a big thank-you from anesthesia since we have ridiculed orthopods for decades for operating on anybody:)  Our payment system rewards surgeons operating on huge units more than primary care folks doing patient teaching on those huge units.  Until we correct the payment system, not much good will happen.

[toomuchbaloney]

9 hours ago, RKM2021 said:

You bring up past history when it suits you I will do the same. 

Bring up what you prefer...you wanted to talk about what Fauci said a year ago...why would 3 month old polling data be problematic for you? Do you think that unvaccinated people have dramatically changed their thinking since July? That seems inconsistent.  Did you even look at the information?

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, RJMDilts said:

Oh, Forbes, that bastion of scientific research. The guy talks down to me in earlier post about "not understanding" scientific research and data and pulls out a poll from a magazine. LMAO. If it were financial advice I might think about it. There is actually research being done/been done to better support the claim than Forbes. Weak, very weak, effort. For the record, I don't disagree there are many Trump supporters, AKA republicans hesitant, but you'll find a significant number of younger people and minorities (not typically Republican voters) who are hesitant for varying reasons. But hey, lets keep the political aspect alive and well and divisive as it seems to make some in the room feel better. But, please use better sources next time.

OK..ignore the polling and make up your own demographic breakdown for the unvaccinated if that makes you more comfortable. Political ideology of those choosing to remain unvaccinated is the domain of sociology, not virology or biology. 

[klone, MSN, RN]

51 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

OK..ignore the polling and make up your own demographic breakdown for the unvaccinated if that makes you more comfortable. Political ideology of those choosing to remain unvaccinated is the domain of sociology, not virology or biology. 

Here's something that's not Forbes

https://www.coloradohealthinstitute.org/blog/data-show-politics-has-become-powerful-driver-vaccine-hesitancy

 

Quote

As the COVID-19 vaccine campaign has proceeded and slowed, a pattern has emerged across the country: States where greater shares of people voted for former President Donald Trump tend to have the lowest vaccination rates, making their residents more vulnerable to the coronavirus and its variants.

 

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

2 hours ago, klone said:

Here's something that's not Forbes

https://www.coloradohealthinstitute.org/blog/data-show-politics-has-become-powerful-driver-vaccine-hesitancy

 

 

I actually found some interesting sources from of all places, that scientific powerhouse, the NIH websites National Library of Medicine, in between reviewing for my PALS recert class...I call that multi-tasking.

I know you want to keep the political agenda going, but I'd like to help widen the discussion. There are a multitude of factors that cause hesitancy. One certainly is political. Here's another one. It's racial. I wonder why? Could it be a lack of trust in government and medicine due to actual events in the past where minorities were treated inappropriately/ inadequately?  Thankfully, the hesitancy in the minority groups is starting to turn around. (Emphasis added is mine) But as the below information shows, there is more to the hesitancy issue than just the  Trumpeteers as many want to paint the issue. I point that out as minorities, and African-Americans in particular, are not well know for supporting Republican candidates.

Abstract

Understanding and minimizing coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine hesitancy is critical to population health and minimizing health inequities, which continue to be brought into stark relief by the pandemic. We investigate questions regarding vaccine hesitancy in a sample (n = 1205) of Arkansas adults surveyed online in July/August of 2020. We examine relationships among sociodemographics, COVID-19 health literacy, fear of COVID-19 infection, general trust in vaccines, and COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy using bivariate analysis and a full information maximum likelihood (FIML) logistic regression model. One in five people (21,21.86%) reported hesitancy to take a COVID-19 vaccine. Prevalence of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy was highest among Black/African Americans (50.00%), respondents with household income less than $25K (30.68%), some college (32.17%), little to no fear of infection from COVID-19 (62.50%), and low trust in vaccines in general (55.84%). Odds of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy were 2.42 greater for Black/African American respondents compared to White respondents (p < 0.001), 1.67 greater for respondents with some college/technical degree compared to respondents with a 4-year degree (p < 0.05), 5.48 greater for respondents with no fear of COVID-19 infection compared to those who fear infection to a great extent (p < 0.001), and 11.32 greater for respondents with low trust in vaccines (p < 0.001). Sociodemographic differences in COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy raise concerns about the potential of vaccine implementation to widen existing health disparities in COVID-19 related infections, particularly among Black/African Americans. Fear of infection and general mistrust in vaccines are significantly associated with vaccine hesitancy.

Willis DE, Andersen JA, Bryant-Moore K, Selig JP, Long CR, Felix HC, Curran GM, McElfish PA. COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy: Race/ethnicity, trust, and fear. Clin Transl Sci. 2021 Jul 2:10.1111/cts.13077. doi: 10.1111/cts.13077. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34213073; PMCID: PMC8444681.

Conclusions:

COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy was greater among racial and ethnic minorities, and Black participants living in the U.S. were less likely to receive a vaccine than White participants. 

" In the U.S., Black individuals were less likely to be vaccinated than White participants (OR 0.71, 95% CI: 0.64 to 0.79), even after adjusting for age, region, comorbidities, and occupation as a HCW (Table 3A)."

Nguyen, L. H., Joshi, A. D., Drew, D. A., Merino, J., Ma, W., Lo, C. H., Kwon, S., Wang, K., Graham, M. S., Polidori, L., Menni, C., Sudre, C. H., Anyane-Yeboa, A., Astley, C. M., Warner, E. T., Hu, C. Y., Selvachandran, S., Davies, R., Nash, D., Franks, P. W., … Chan, A. T. (2021). Racial and ethnic differences in COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and uptake. medRxiv : the preprint server for health sciences, 2021.02.25.21252402. https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.02.25.21252402

 

[Guest67138]

3 hours ago, RJMDilts said:

Well said. You hit the nail on the head. You also hit some of my "repeat" offender categories that drive me insane in the ED LOL. You can lead a horse to water, aka non-compliant young T1DM patients, COPDer on O2 who then smokes and becomes a burn patient etc, dialysis patients who "didn't want to go to dialysis the last to sessions" who are now critically ill. I try to educate my patients and family on the risk/reward to the vax and bang my head in the wall when they say no, then carry on. They are free to make that decision. I am concerned about losing staff to this issue as well. I don't know the numbers, but there are co-workers who I would storm the gates of hell with that won't take it and I would still work side by side with them, just as we did before the vax was available. I am vaxed. I wear PPE and they wear PPE. People want to demonize them as well. Like not taking the vax makes them less of a RN, CNA, LPN, MD, RT, etc. They were great before the vax but now, not so much because they don't want the vax?? That makes no sense.  Anyway, Thanks for for you post. Loved it!?

Yes! Exactly my point!

I’m not in the ER right now, but all settings have the repeat offenders. And you know you might as well go talk to the wall next to them because they don’t listen, but you keep doing it anyway. Due diligence. One day, you might get through to them. They might listen and actually make the effort or at least make an attempt to do better with their disease management. But until that time comes, you keep treating that person like any other patient…with care and respect. I come from a long line of nurses/doctors. I was taught to treat every patient as if they were my parent or grandparent or sibling, because they are someone’s family member. It doesn’t matter if they don’t care about themselves or choose not to do what needs to be done to take care of themselves. You keep caring and doing your best with them anyway. We took an oath to take care of these people. Too many have forgotten that or choose to ignore it. They judge the patient (or coworker) and treat them like they aren’t worth it…and I’m talking about in general as well as vax vs non-vax. I hear so many on social media (thankfully none where I work) saying that vax’d patients should get priority over non-vax’d (e.g. ICU beds, vents). It’s discriminatory and wrong on so many levels. If they did that with all noncompliant patients, we’d lose a large percentage of our population. And in regard to coworkers getting vax’d, I don’t think it should be mandated nor do I think the un-vax’d should be fired or alienated or demonized for choosing not to…as long as they are responsible about it. One thing I’m hearing too often is “if you’re a medical professional, you’re putting patients and others at risk for not getting vax’d.” That is piss-poor rationale that is used to belittle others for their choices that they should have the freedom to make. My reasoning behind my opinion on this is this: there are other diseases and health issues that put people at risk, whether it is direct (transmissible diseases) or indirect (increased healthcare costs, overworked staff, strained resources). As long as that medical professional uses appropriate precautions to keep patients and coworkers safe while still providing care, they should be able to practice. Should a medical professional with HIV not be able to practice? What about HepA or HepC or latent TB? The aforementioned indirect examples I gave are some of the exact ones used in arguments by aggressively-approaching medical and non-medical people who attack people for choosing to not get vax’d.

 

I guess what I’m ultimately trying to say is, there isn’t a single person here or anywhere else for that matter who has the right to say anything to or judge anybody for their choice to take a vax or not (or for their voices in regard to my previously disease management compliance). At one time in my career, I was a vaccine nurse and coordinator, but I didn’t tell people to get or not to get the vax. I chose to take a neutral stance, educated the patient/family, and allowed THEM to make an educated/informed decision without fear of any judgment, retribution, or ridicule.

And the whole political argument of Republican and Democrats in regard to vax’ing is utter nonsensical garbage. I personally know people who identify on either side of the political spectrum and all in between, some are vax’d and some aren’t. Some of the unvax’d people’s excuses for not taking it are just outright ignorant. However, some are actually educated and arguably justified with rational reasoning. Who am I to force my opinion aka truth on them? As long as they take the other precautions necessary to keep people around them safe, there is nothing to argue. It’s when you have those who choose to go into public with utter disregard for others, that we have a problem. Then they should be apprised or addressed, for example in the case with a man who knows he has AIDS and knowingly infects others out of spite or intent to harm. That of course is a whole other issue. 

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

13 minutes ago, CamaroGirl13 said:

Yes! Exactly my point!

I’m not in the ER right now, but all settings have the repeat offenders. And you know you might as well go talk to the wall next to them because they don’t listen, but you keep doing it anyway. Due diligence. One day, you might get through to them. They might listen and actually make the effort or at least make an attempt to do better with their disease management. But until that time comes, you keep treating that person like any other patient…with care and respect. I come from a long line of nurses/doctors. I was taught to treat every patient as if they were my parent or grandparent or sibling, because they are someone’s family member. It doesn’t matter if they don’t care about themselves or choose not to do what needs to be done to take care of themselves. You keep caring and doing your best with them anyway. We took an oath to take care of these people. Too many have forgotten that or choose to ignore it. They judge the patient (or coworker) and treat them like they aren’t worth it…and I’m talking about in general as well as vax vs non-vax. I hear so many on social media (thankfully none where I work) saying that vax’d patients should get priority over non-vax’d (e.g. ICU beds, vents). It’s discriminatory and wrong on so many levels. If they did that with all noncompliant patients, we’d lose a large percentage of our population. And in regard to coworkers getting vax’d, I don’t think it should be mandated nor do I think the un-vax’d should be fired or alienated or demonized for choosing not to…as long as they are responsible about it. One thing I’m hearing too often is “if you’re a medical professional, you’re putting patients and others at risk for not getting vax’d.” That is piss-poor rationale that is used to belittle others for their choices that they should have the freedom to make. My reasoning behind my opinion on this is this: there are other diseases and health issues that put people at risk, whether it is direct (transmissible diseases) or indirect (increased healthcare costs, overworked staff, strained resources). As long as that medical professional uses appropriate precautions to keep patients and coworkers safe while still providing care, they should be able to practice. Should a medical professional with HIV not be able to practice? What about HepA or HepC or latent TB? The aforementioned indirect examples I gave are some of the exact ones used in arguments by aggressively-approaching medical and non-medical people who attack people for choosing to not get vax’d.

 

I guess what I’m ultimately trying to say is, there isn’t a single person here or anywhere else for that matter who has the right to say anything to or judge anybody for their choice to take a vax or not (or for their voices in regard to my previously disease management compliance). At one time in my career, I was a vaccine nurse and coordinator, but I didn’t tell people to get or not to get the vax. I chose to take a neutral stance, educated the patient/family, and allowed THEM to make an educated/informed decision without fear of any judgment, retribution, or ridicule.

And the whole political argument of Republican and Democrats in regard to vax’ing is utter nonsensical garbage. I personally know people who identify on either side of the political spectrum and all in between, some are vax’d and some aren’t. Some of the unvax’d people’s excuses for not taking it are just outright ignorant. However, some are actually educated and arguably justified with rational reasoning. Who am I to force my opinion aka truth on them? As long as they take the other precautions necessary to keep people around them safe, there is nothing to argue. It’s when you have those who choose to go into public with utter disregard for others, that we have a problem. Then they should be apprised or addressed, for example in the case with a man who knows he has AIDS and knowingly infects others out of spite or intent to harm. That of course is a whole other issue. 

Preach Sister! Amen. I was feeling like the Lone Ranger in here. We're  in 100% agreement. I appreciate your post. Hope you have a great rest of the day. Heading out to mow the grass! 

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

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[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, CamaroGirl13 said:

It’s when you have those who choose to go into public with utter disregard for others, that we have a problem. Then they should be apprised or addressed, for example in the case with a man who knows he has AIDS and knowingly infects others out of spite or intent to harm. That of course is a whole other issue. 

You mean like people who are adamantly opposed to masking or social distancing and also are not intending to vaccinate against covid? Because, unlike HIV, covid is vaccine preventable and spread easily via respiratory exposure.  Unvaccinated people going maskless in public places in the middle of a pandemic caused by a respiratory contagion seems like utter disregard for others to me.  Does it seem like that to you?

Public health has long addressed the hesitancy and distrust that the American Medical system and practice has earned among native and black communities.  What's new is this political motivation to refuse vaccination and the passion with which people cling to that choice regardless of the personal risk for adverse consequence from that decision and choice.  

[MunoRN, RN]

7 hours ago, RJMDilts said:

Oh, Forbes, that bastion of scientific research. The guy talks down to me in earlier post about "not understanding" scientific research and data and pulls out a poll from a magazine. LMAO. If it were financial advice I might think about it. There is actually research being done/been done to better support the claim than Forbes. Weak, very weak, effort. For the record, I don't disagree there are many Trump supporters, AKA republicans hesitant, but you'll find a significant number of younger people and minorities (not typically Republican voters) who are hesitant for varying reasons. But hey, lets keep the political aspect alive and well and divisive as it seems to make some in the room feel better. But, please use better sources next time.

The survey was by PRRI, not Forbes.  PRRI is generally considered to be a balanced and competent when it comes to survey data.  Just in general, if you can cite problems with the survey or the resulting data then fell free to offer that.  Otherwise dismissing something offhandedly because a source that isn't a preferred source reported on the data isn't really productive.

I don't think anyone would argue that there are those opposed to Covid vaccines in all political groups, but I don't think you can argue that Republican politicians are only equally likely to either tacitly or overtly support anti-vax and/or ant-mask sentiments.  It's certainly more prevalent at the state level than with federal-level Republicans, but it seems fairly obvious these are more commonly Republican politicians than Democrat politicians taking part in this.

[Guest67138]

2 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

You mean like people who are adamantly opposed to masking or social distancing and also are not intending to vaccinate against covid? Because, unlike HIV, covid is vaccine preventable and spread easily via respiratory exposure.  Unvaccinated people going maskless in public places in the middle of a pandemic caused by a respiratory contagion seems like utter disregard for others to me.  Does it seem like that to you?

Public health has long addressed the hesitancy and distrust that the American Medical system and practice has earned among native and black communities.  What's new is this political motivation to refuse vaccination and the passion with which people cling to that choice regardless of the personal risk for adverse consequence from that decision and choice.  

In case I wasn’t clear in my previous post(s) and there is need for clarification, I said that people have the right to choose whether they want to vaccinate. I believe that should they choose not to vaccinate, then they should use discernment to make good decisions when there is the possibility of their being sick. They should be able to make the choice to take measures necessary to not intentionally harm someone else. My example with the AIDS patient was intended to support my statement that a person should have the moral obligation to make decisions that endeavor to not force an illness on others. My AIDS patient example was not intended for dissection so that someone can say well that’s not preventable but COVID is. It is my understanding that COVID is actually not preventable nor does the vaccine prevent you from getting it. I believe I read in previous messages between you and others on this particular subject and that it was stated that the vaccine is supposed to decrease the severity or something to that effect. I would also point out that AIDS could also be labeled as preventable unless it is contracted in the event of birth or receipt of contaminated blood products. With all that said because I wished to address the point you were making, I’m going to get off that tangent and return to the point I was originally making. My posts were more targeted towards my opinion of how people that aren’t vaccinated are poorly treated as well as discriminated against and that it is our professional and moral responsibility as medical professionals to educate them and respect their wishes, not judge and criticize and demoralize. 
 

As for your question… and please redirect me if I have misunderstood or misconstrued your question… I will leave your mention of the “pandemic caused by a respiratory contagion” left unsaid, because, as we are all well aware, we are in a COVID pandemic, and COVID is a contagion.
 

My post(s) are, as I said before, intended to bring to light the subject of how people are being treated by people, specifically medical professionals, for the decisions they make and that it is not our place to do that. 
 

With that said, and so that I’m not accused of avoiding a question… again please redirect me if I have misunderstood it: Do I consider someone who chooses not to vaccinate or wear a mask or practice social distancing to be displaying disregard for others? Well that depends. I’ve already made my opinion on the choice to vaccinate abundantly clear. Should that unvaccinated person have to wear a mask? To address this specifically, I have to pose this viewpoint and question to you: That unvaxed person has made the the choice not to. Let’s say they have watched the television and heard from several medical professionals that masking does help decrease the rate of transmission, but then that person reads from what they believe to be a reputable medical source that the cloth masks that most people are wearing have a decidedly low efficacy percentage or success rate and is more or less pointless. This leads to my question back to you: Should you have the right to berate/judge/demean/demoralize or talk poorly about that person you see walking around the grocery store and judge that person because “you know better” and they are making what you have surmised to be a mistake?  No, you don’t. And then I would point out in that same scenario, that no they are not showing a utter disregard for others. That person has done their research whether it’s from a reputable source or not and have made their God-given right to decide not to wear a mask in public. I could even go on to add another what-if… What if that person actually believes with all their being that they are not sick (even though we all know there are asymptomatic carriers) and decide they don’t need the mask because they believe if they do get it that they will be OK because they have no underlying health problems, are relatively healthy, and are willing to take that risk? That goes back to my multiple examples of noncompliant patients. And then there’s your point regarding social distancing. I personally believe that social distancing should always be practiced and should have been practiced before the entire pandemic even started. Maybe not so intensely but to some degree. I personally value my personal space and would much prefer someone keep their distance regardless.