This cannot be ethical!

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I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

Exactly.

I also work at a teaching hospital. You have to decide what is more ethical - a first-year resident trying to intubate a sick baby, and perhaps the intubation will not go very well because of their inexperience. Or you can have them trying to intubate a dead baby without the parents' permission. In my hospital, we will always go with the live baby, because it's a necessary procedure and we are responsible for that doctor's education and training. They've practiced on dolls, and often on kittens as well. Honestly, if I had a choice between letting a first-year resident intubate my sick 24-weeker or my stillborn infant...I'd pick the preemie. I mean, come on, don't we all remember our first IV stick? First arterial puncture? Gotta learn sometime, and at least it should be a case where the procedure is necessary, so it's not just for "practice" you know?

I just can't imagine being a part of this, I'm totally disgusted. When we lose a baby, we take such care of their bodies. We slowly and gently remove all the tubes, lines, and tape. We bathe the baby's body, and we always ask the parents if they wish to be a part of this process. It's almost like a ritual - we feel like we're washing away all the pain and suffering the baby endured. We even turn the warmer on high so the baby stays warm as long as possible. Then we'll dress them and wrap them up, and when it's time to go the morgue, I don't think there's a single nurse on the unit who can zip up that body bag without crying. We just treat their bodies with such respect, whether or not the parents are around. We've even had some very sad cases of parental abandonment, where the docs would not have needed to get permission on "practice" on the baby's body - but they never even mentioned it. We're almost more protective of these poor babies because they have no parents to be their advocates.

Even though I have never lost a child-reading this thread makes me feel so much better. When I first read the topic of this thread I was thinking Dear God, please don't let this be the norm!

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Again this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I bring this topic up because several people here think it's wrong to intubate someone that is deceased because we are suppose to be patient advocates. If that is true then it would be unethical to assist with an abortion since you would not be advocating for an unborn child (I can see an exception to that if the life of the mother is in danger). You can't have it both ways.
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Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

this is the second request to keep on topic.

this is not an abortion topic.

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this is the second request to keep on topic.

this is not an abortion topic.

siri-i am tying, i promise!

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Exactly.

I also work at a teaching hospital. You have to decide what is more ethical - a first-year resident trying to intubate a sick baby, and perhaps the intubation will not go very well because of their inexperience. Or you can have them trying to intubate a dead baby without the parents' permission. In my hospital, we will always go with the live baby, because it's a necessary procedure and we are responsible for that doctor's education and training. They've practiced on dolls, and often on kittens as well. Honestly, if I had a choice between letting a first-year resident intubate my sick 24-weeker or my stillborn infant...I'd pick the preemie. I mean, come on, don't we all remember our first IV stick? First arterial puncture? Gotta learn sometime, and at least it should be a case where the procedure is necessary, so it's not just for "practice" you know?

I just can't imagine being a part of this, I'm totally disgusted. When we lose a baby, we take such care of their bodies. We slowly and gently remove all the tubes, lines, and tape. We bathe the baby's body, and we always ask the parents if they wish to be a part of this process. It's almost like a ritual - we feel like we're washing away all the pain and suffering the baby endured. We even turn the warmer on high so the baby stays warm as long as possible. Then we'll dress them and wrap them up, and when it's time to go the morgue, I don't think there's a single nurse on the unit who can zip up that body bag without crying. We just treat their bodies with such respect, whether or not the parents are around. We've even had some very sad cases of parental abandonment, where the docs would not have needed to get permission on "practice" on the baby's body - but they never even mentioned it. We're almost more protective of these poor babies because they have no parents to be their advocates.

GOD BLESS YOU, GOD BLESS YOU, GOD BLESS YOU, GOMPERS

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I bring this topic up because several people here think it's wrong to intubate someone that is deceased because we are suppose to be patient advocates. If that is true then it would be unethical to assist with an abortion since you would not be advocating for an unborn child (I can see an exception to that if the life of the mother is in danger). You can't have it both ways.

The point is to go behind the back of a patient to do something for our own gain and in order to serve our own purposes (no matter how good the intention) is simply unethical.

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Does your facility have an ethics and compliance person? Most do. I would be giving them a call . . . you do not have to give your name.

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Specializes in NICU, Infection Control.
Does your facility have an ethics and compliance person? Most do. I would be giving them a call . . . you do not have to give your name.

Now, THAT is an excellent idea!!

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Yikes! We certainly do not do this. I am not doubting the educational value, but if one or one's child is to be used for "teaching" or experimentation, then prior consent should be obtained. My oldest had arrested when she was about 24 hours old, I remember wondering what I would do if she did not make it and I was asked about organ donation. I am a donor myself but was sickened by the idea of her little body being mutilated. Thank God I didn't have to go there. As for the idea of "no marks or damage to the body" w/ intubation, that is just not the case. If these little ones have been deceased for awhile before birth they are often very fragile. Besides that, even if the families do not know it, it is just not right to do this w/o consent. I don't even think this is right for electively aborted fetuses w/o consent.

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Specializes in NICU, Psych, Education.

I remember reading about this recently. It was addressed either in my ACLS book or my PALS book - can't remember which and I don't have the books with me at the moment.

From what I remember, the AHA said that it could see both sides of the issue, but that if this practice was followed at all, the family should definitely be involved.

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"
And I can honestly say in the number of times I have done this or seen it done not once did the patient complain.

You're a cold person. What a cruel, hurtful thing to say. :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

Hey, it cracked me up.

:rotfl:

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That's just it it is not done in front of the family so you would never know about it. I have seen it done in the ER several times and Quite a few at the morgue when working in the pre-hospital environment. As far as someone not having the right to treat your child in most States your child can han have an abortion and you have no right to know about it.

So - it's ok because the family doesn't know about it? That is not a valid argument for this practice. Hmm, could you then do anything to the deceased person as long as the family didn't know about it??? I don't think so... What in the world have happened to ethics and integrity?

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