This cannot be ethical!

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I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1525-1497.2002.11139.x?cookieSet=1

" ...there is an obligation to secure consent for training activities on newly and nearly dead patients based on contemporary norms for informed consent and family respect. Paradigms of consent-dependent societal benefits elsewhere in health care support our determination that the benefits from physicians practicing procedures does not justify setting aside the informed consent requirement."

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I see on one side people stating that it is a violation of the infants body and the parents rights, I see another side stating that it is for learning proposes, no "harm" is done so it should be ok. To the second camp I have to ask would it be ok if the other orifices of the body were violated? Should the dead be used to practices giving suppositories or edemas? Perhaps an GYN exam for your deceased Grandma since no one is looking? Should nurse's become ghouls waiting for the next "dead body" to practice on... willing or not? I know that cadavers, those that willingly offer up their bodies for learning, are treated with more respect. It is beneth contempt to think of using humans to get a "quckie" lesson in on the sly...

My son, David, was stillborn at 37 weeks due to a true knot in the umbilical cord. It is a comfort to me that my son was giving the loving respect he deserved. How shocking to think that at the wrong hospital he would have been offered up to vultures waiting to violate his body! :cry:

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Specializes in ICU/Telemetry/Med-Surg/Case Mgmt.

As the mother of an infant that died at the extremely young age of 3 days, I object to anybody thinking that they have the right to do anything of this nature to a stillborn baby or a deceased patient of ANY age!! I have been an ICU nurse for 9 years and would not dream of treating any of my patients--living or dead-- in this manner.

My daughter was an organ donor. When we filled out all the paperwork/answered all the questions, research was an option. We could have allowed them to use whatever they thought was necessary for research. We did not give consent for that. As the next of kin it was our choice. Just because I walk out of a room, does that give nurses or other medical people the right to do whatever they want?

Do the nurses who choose to intubate stillborn babies or other deceased patients, do other actions that families would be upset about that are not ordered or necessary when the family leaves the room?

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Blah blah blah,

everyone here has their own agenda as to why this is ethical or that is unethical. In nursing, we are blessed with the ability to go into a WIDE variety of specialties. Be it, L&D, Forensic, or Research. The need for someone to practice so that others may benefit is there people. It has always happened and always will happen. Regardless of your personal beliefs and personal morals.

I know the idea of attempting to intubate a baby seems very wrong, but think about the otherwise. What if your child died because a paramedic couldn't get the intubation because he'd never had the opportunity to attempt it? Medicine started out this way, we just never talk about it. You know, I know, and now everyone else knows it.

Would I want it done to my two-month old? Probably not. I would probably not want to be told about it either.

If you wanna preach ethics, tell it to the mountain. Our profession has tons of questionable practices that are done because they can be done, not necessarily because they should be done. (ex: genetic modification or "Hey New Grad, wanna practice starting IV's on this tubed and sedated pt.?" --- I know who you guilty ones are!!!) I'm sure if you asked a group of med students what they thought, you might get a different answer.

I hope this provokes some thought and intelligent HEALTHY debate.

cheers,

gustercc

p.s. keep your bible chatter at bay

Boy...some of you nursing students scare the heck out of me:chair: ( remember, I said some). People are becoming more and more skeptical about nurses and the treatment they recieve, or don't recieve from us. This kind of thinking just supports their and my,for that matter, fears. IE: It's done all the time, It doesn't hurt anyone (in my opinion), and no one is watching, so none of the other rules of life apply, only what I decide is right . I can do anything I deem necessary for me because I can get away with it. --------------:nono: :nono:

Thought these lessons were taught in kindergarten, guess some of us skipped that year. You know, I'm not much for Bible chatter either, but I say bring it on, if it will combat that kind of thinking. I'm not catholic, I'm not religious, but I'm eternally thankful that the nuns taught me in nursing school.

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Specializes in PeriOp, ICU, PICU, NICU.

Not a nurse, but seems unethical to me.

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....

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Boy...some of you nursing students scare the heck out of me:chair: ( remember, I said some). People are becoming more and more skeptical about nurses and the treatment they recieve, or don't recieve from us. This kind of thinking just supports their and my,for that matter, fears. IE: --------------:nono: :nono:

Thought these lessons were taught in kindergarten, guess some of us skipped that year. You know, I'm not much for Bible chatter either, but I say bring it on, if it will combat that kind of thinking. I'm not catholic, I'm not religious, but I'm eternally thankful that the nuns taught me in nursing school.

Hey BUBBA,

NOT a nursing student. thank you very much. Student of life: always.

And I, like you, have questioned some of the train of thought that some vet nurses bring to the table.

Personally, if you come into the room with the "It's done all the time, It doesn't hurt anyone (in my opinion), and no one is watching, so none of the other rules of life apply, only what I decide is right . I can do anything I deem necessary for me because I can get away with it." mentality, then yes you deserve to get a swift kick in the butt. But if you approach the opportunity with composure, and realize that you are very fortunate enough to the have the chance, you may walk away with a greater appreciation of it.

Like I said, I know it seems wrong, but not everyone approaches it with a "hey this is gonna be fun attitude"!!

Think about everyone you've ever lost. Grandma, grampa, sister, Momma, daddy, etc......Chances are they've met or experienced what some may call "desecration." You all know what I'm talking about. The crude jokes during a code, the off color comments when dressing a body, the "damn she's heavy!" comments when your helping transfer a body from the stretcher to the funeral homes gurney. If you've never experienced it, WOW, tell me what hospital you work for, only so I can send all these other nurses who would "never allow such practices" to go an work there.

cheers,

gustercc

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I don't see any "agendas" here. I see people trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

You can color or shade something that is ethically wrong by saying it will help someone else someday, and talk yourself into thinking it's ok... a necessary evil. But don't compare words, as in comments made about a patient, to actions actually done to a patient, dead or alive.... it's completely irrelevant. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Practicing intubation on a dead baby is completely unethical. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If it wasn't wrong, they would NOT be doing it without informing the parents, they would NOT be doing it secretly. Ask a medical ethicist....most medical schools have one. Find one and email him or her. I dare you.

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Another thing. Condoning these actions by saying it might help someone else live someday reminds me of what the Nazis said about their medical experiments in concentration camps. Trying to cloak the actions in legitimacy by saying the "for the greatest good"? That turns my stomache. ....some wannabe hotshot trying to twist things to fit his/her yearning to intubate.

(edited out expletive for TOS compliance).

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I see you are a nursing student. I suggest you quit now and find another field of work. One that does not involve even a modicum of empathy or caring would be perfect for you.

I'm so glad you know so much about me because an experienced nurse cracked me up with a twisted joke.

The air must be thin up there on your cloud.

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Another thing. Condoning these actions by saying it might help someone else live someday reminds me of what the Nazis said about their medical experiments in concentration camps. Trying to cloak the actions in legitimacy by saying the "for the greatest good"? That turns my stomache. ...some wannabe hotshot trying to twist things to fit his/her yearning to intubate.

Please. The Nazis were torturing living people.

S/he who invokes Hitler loses the argument.

(edited out expletive in reference post)

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There has been a lifetime of debate over when a spirit enters a body, as in is abortion legal. I wonder if anyone has thought about when a spirit leaves a body. Does somebody have a definitive answer on that.....If not then do you know if you are expermenting on a corpse or not? Just a little more to think about, since some are are assuming no one is being hurt here. Maybe....maybe not.

And Gustercc, some of your comments could make sense to me ....if we were all good guys, you know alot of things could be possible if we were all good guys and could be trusted to do the thing for the better. But sadly, we aren't all good guys and when things are left up to all of our judgement as you can see in this thread, we don't always respect the higher good. That is why someone else...ie a family member has to be able to say yes or no, and that is my only point here. Not whether it is benicificial enough to do, only whether we can decide to without permission. I understood that to be the topic of this thread.

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