This cannot be ethical!

[sweetcheekers]

I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

[nurse_wannabe]

I'm so glad you know so much about me because an experienced nurse cracked me up with a twisted joke.

The air must be thin up there on your cloud.

Your post told me all I need to know about you. You were "cracked up" about dead babies not being able to complain about being intubated. 'Nuff said.

[nurse_wannabe]

(quote)"I see you are a nursing student. I suggest you quit now and find another field of work. One that does not involve even a modicum of empathy or caring would be perfect for you."

I think that comment may be a little too far. Working in critical care I have found many nurses (including myself) that rely on black humour to cope with many situations. I also noticed that you yourself are a nursing student, keep in mind the best evaluation is self evaluation, don't assume this person would not be empathetic (they may suprise you, and maybe they wont)

As far as this discussion goes, I think it has had soo many responses because it is a very ethical dilemma. I am not sure where I stand with this issue. Someone previously made a comment that it could help other neonates in the future. This I believe to be true. Many residents need to practice skills to become competent, do I say this should be a reason to go ahead and continue with this, no, but it is something to consider. At the hospital I work at students perform various skills on deceased patients (I wouldn't call them a cadaver at this point) and it is vital to learning. Do they have a right, I can't answer that. Great thread, hence the heated discussion.

I'm no longer a student, thankfully. I work in LTC, and I know all about black humor. I've used it all my life. But anyone who would enjoy a joke with dead babies as the punchline cannot possibly care enough about life to be a caregiver to anyone.

[guest64485]

But anyone who would enjoy a joke with dead babies as the punchline cannot possibly care enough about life to be a caregiver to anyone.

I'm going to second what Dapper said. Don't make such wide assumptions about a person based on one factor.

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

Your post told me all I need to know about you. You were "cracked up" about dead babies not being able to complain about being intubated. 'Nuff said.

I'm no longer a student, thankfully. I work in LTC, and I know all about black humor. I've used it all my life. But anyone who would enjoy a joke with dead babies as the punchline cannot possibly care enough about life to be a caregiver to anyone.

Well, thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster you don't work in trauma.

Tell you what. Give your personnel department a list of laughter-permitted jokes and let them make the decision.

[marybethm]

Please. The Nazis were torturing living people.

S/he who invokes Hitler loses the argument.

Oh, I see. You are the boss of this discussion, right? Grand poobah of all things ethical. Yikes. We're in big trouble.

And as I have already said, you are comparing apples to oranges again. But why bother with little things like details when there are dead people to experiment on?

[Nurse Ratched, RN]

Enough of the flaming. This thread needs a time out.

[Jay-Jay, RN]

My thoughts exactly! Ratched, you beat me to it! :)