This cannot be ethical!

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I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

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and i can honestly say in the number of times i have done this or seen it done not once did the patient complain.

you're a cold person. what a cruel, hurtful thing to say. :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

i agree!! atleast ask!.....what if that was ur child?? "ohh never mind, i don't think u would care one bit!"

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You know my heart tells me this is wrong, and it is sacred. Especially for a newborn. It's not just a dead body, it's somebody's baby. I don't think I could do it.

However, if I had to have my newborn intubated, I would hope that the person doing it would have some kind of experience. I would hate to think that the first time I intubated an infant "for real" could be a fatal mistake. In that case, I suppose there have to be instances where this happens. Kind of like the way the practice of medicine and surgery began hundreds of years ago.

Yes, during the dying process, we use the opportunity to bring knowlege and compassion to our "students" in our buildings. Hopefully to make them better caregivers, while allowing for the respect and dignity deserving to our patients and families.

I am not sure how many parents would be able to consent to this in their grief and doubt if I could be on either end of it. Unfortunately, and realisticly our future doctors, etc have to learn somewhere.

Not sure where I stand.:o

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no one is sacrificing a child at an alter or feeding it to the lions. These things are done so that others can live. Placing and removing an endotracheal tube is done for experience so when that provider needs to accomplish that skill it can be accomplished expeditiously and accurately.

Thats great-but it should be done with the parent or family members PERMISSION! They should have the right to decide not a bunch of procedure hungry residents! I would seriously hurt someone if they were to touch my child without my permission- alive or not!

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Specializes in Critical Care, Pediatrics, Geriatrics.

It is not ethical. You can tell by just the responses on this thread that several parents would feel violated if they were made aware of this practice on their stillborn child. The argument that it is appropriate because they will not be present or will never have knowledge only creates more distrust in the medical profession. Cultures around the world revere the deceased bodies of loved ones as sacred and delicate, not to be tampered with inappropriately. Just because you can respect the dignity of the actual body does not fulfill the obligation of meeting the psychological and spiritual needs of the family. It is tempting to use the body for the advancement and learning of future medical professionals instead of taking the chance of asking for the family's permission and it not being given. But no matter how much that practice may benefit others, the family's rights and consent should not be dismissed as unimportant. If a facility wishes to use the deceased body for any procedures or practice then it has an obligation to inform the surviving family members and obtain consent. Hospitals can not take the organs of the deceased no matter how needed they would be without consent from the family. Nor should they be allowed to perform any procedure on a corpse without appropriate authorization. If you asked and explained the necessity of the procedures, you may be surprised how many parents would actually agree in hopes that their child's death may be validated by providing knowledge that will save another's life. If they are never given the choice then their rights are being violated. If they discover the procedures were performed without their knowledge it may cause more psychological and emotional harm to the family.

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I understand the "reasoning" but unless you have my consent you shouldn't be doing anything to MY child. I refused an autopsy for the reasons that my son had been through enough and I didn't want his body to be violated anymore. That is MY choice and MY decision. If things were done to him after he died I would be furious. There is ALWAYS a chance that someone will find out that something was done to their baby and I cannot even begin to imagine being responsible for more pain in their lives. :crying2:

mom23RN, I completely agree with you. So sorry for your loss. Like you stated I could not imagine causing more pain to people that have already suffered the unimaginable.

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A coroner (prominent) In our area has been charged with sended corpses that had no family to a local college for educational uses. Of course these were people who had no one to speak for them. Just like the baby or child behind a closed door. I say shame on you who touches anothers loved one without consent!

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I had a stillborn baby, and I am livid with anger right now just at the thought.

If I knew this had been done on my baby, I would have a lawsuit waiting.

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Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
You know my heart tells me this is wrong, and it is sacred. Especially for a newborn. It's not just a dead body, it's somebody's baby. I don't think I could do it.

However, if I had to have my newborn intubated, I would hope that the person doing it would have some kind of experience. I would hate to think that the first time I intubated an infant "for real" could be a fatal mistake.

I am not sure how many parents would be able to consent to this in their grief and doubt if I could be on either end of it. Unfortunately, and realisticly our future doctors, etc have to learn somewhere.

This is just NOT a valid concern.

I've worked in NICU and OB for 11 years, in 5 different hospitals, in 5 different states, in units ranging from 50 bed NICU's, to small, rural community hospitals. Never have I encountered a situation where there was not an experienced person available to intubate a newborn in crisis.

NRP guidelines call for 2 persons to be present at ALL deliveries who are skilled in neonatal resuscitation, at least one of whom can intubate. This is the nationally recognized standard of care, and I have not encountered a facility yet where this standard was not met. The person responsible for intubation has ranged from the OB/CNM, to anesthesia, to the ER doc, to the on-call pediatrician, to NNP, to OB staff nurse (a category II procedure requiring evidence of training and skills maintenance), to RT. Each facility has its own procedure in place, with appropriately trained staff in place.

The notion of babies' lives being lost due to lack of availability of personnel skilled in neonatal intubation is just not realistic, nor is it a valid argument for practicing skills on deceased infants without parental consent.

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i dont think i could and i wouldnt want to do this on a still born

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Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.

With consent, ok, I can understand the educational value, but still wouldn't want to be the one learning.

Without consent, FORGET IT ! (aka abuse of a corpse!)

The crack about the patient not complaining, I don't think it was appropriate either but I don't think any harm was meant by it. Just my opinion.

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Thats great-but it should be done with the parent or family members PERMISSION! They should have the right to decide not a bunch of procedure hungry residents! I would seriously hurt someone if they were to touch my child without my permission- alive or not!

AMEN! AMEN!--- I don't think that there is anything quite as disturbing to a parent than someone messing with their children, I frankly would give permission. I had to learn, others do too, but not behind our backs. ...You know I never know how far I can go on these posts, some get cut off when I'm saying "why", it's good to debate and sometimes debate gets hot. But that isn't felt here on this site. So at the risk of being told that , I have to say, If I knew it was being done where I worked, I would go to the administrator, if that got me no where, I would go to the newspaper, the news stations, they love things like this, I would write letters to everyone I know and tell them that their rights and the rights of their children are being violated, I would scream it to who ever until they got so tired of hearing me that someone would do something. And right along with bklpn, not only would I want to seriously hurt someone, it may end up being them lying there having their trachia investigated by some students. Now that would be instant Karma. "It isn't like ....sacrificing.....lions...." Give me a break...

Just who the blazes do you all think you are anyway. What gives you the right, not one who agrees with this practice has been able to tell us that. That is because you do not have the right plain and simple. I agree with steelcityrn, SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU ANY OF YOU WHO DO THIS OR CONDONE IT. You know eventually we all answer to someone.

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Sounds pretty iffy to me. Even though in some states dead people have no further rights under the law, I'd think that practicing something on a corpse without permission would still breach some kind of ethics or regulation. It's not whether it's an infant or not that bothers me, it's just the whole idea of doing something without consent.

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