This cannot be ethical!

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I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

As someone who has lost a child (not to stillbirth but very young) I would be horrified if someone did that to my child.

I'm not sue crazy, but had I EVER found out that someone had done that I would sue them. That is my child in life and death and NO ONE has the right to treat them/practice on them without MY consent.:angryfire

If I ever SAW this being done I would also report it to the ethics commitee at my facility.

That's just it it is not done in front of the family so you would never know about it. I have seen it done in the ER several times and Quite a few at the morgue when working in the pre-hospital environment. As far as someone not having the right to treat your child in most States your child can han have an abortion and you have no right to know about it.

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
And I can honestly say in the number of times I have done this or seen it done not once did the patient complain.

I'm sure the family would gripe about this kind of non-chalant (and disrespectful) attitude.

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.

Anyway, permission should be gotten. To do so without it is wrong, i don't care how frequently it's done.

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That's just it it is not done in front of the family so you would never know about it. I have seen it done in the ER several times and Quite a few at the morgue when working in the pre-hospital environment. As far as someone not having the right to treat your child in most States your child can han have an abortion and you have no right to know about it.

In cases of abortion the child becomes an emanciptaed minor upon conception. Not quite the same as practicing intubations on my dead baby. :madface:

I have worked in an ER for several years and this was NEVER even thought about. I guess the point is WHAT IF the family finds out about it???? Dont' you think they've been through enough???

This really makes me want to tell people don't let your dead babies out of your sight. :madface:

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no one is sacrificing a child at an alter or feeding it to the lions. These things are done so that others can live. Placing and removing an endotracheal tube is done for experience so when that provider needs to accomplish that skill it can be accomplished expeditiously and accurately.

The harm is that nurses are suppose to have a code of ethics. We are suppose to handle ourselves in a way that makes us deserving of the trust that our patients and their families place in us. We are not suppose to deceive people for our own gain, regardless of wether our gain is knowledge or something else. We are required to show honor and respect to the human body wether living or dead. Is nothing sacred? I firmly believe in providing dignity for all my patients, child, adult, living, or dead. I will not betray someone by using them for experimentation without specific consent from the appropriate party. I would be outraged if someone did this to someone I love. Do we want to create an environment in which families feel they must protect the deceased remains from the very people who are suppose to care for the patient? What happened to the psycho-social side of nursing and caring for more than just the physical needs of our patient. We are suppose to value the psychological needs equally and that includes the family of the deceased. Even if not in agreement with this theory, I would think that anyone who believes that nursing is a profession would choose to conduct themselves in a professional manner and put the feelings of the patient/family before their own desire for a learning experience. Patients should not lose their rights because they die. Professionalism means that we have a code of conduct which includes honoring the rights of patients wether we agree with the patient or not. Patients should never become a "commodity" that we see as convenient for our own use regardless of the circumstances.
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Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
no one is sacrificing a child at an alter or feeding it to the lions. These things are done so that others can live. Placing and removing an endotracheal tube is done for experience so when that provider needs to accomplish that skill it can be accomplished expeditiously and accurately.

So why not simply obtain consent?

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That's just it it is not done in front of the family so you would never know about it. I have seen it done in the ER several times and Quite a few at the morgue when working in the pre-hospital environment. As far as someone not having the right to treat your child in most States your child can han have an abortion and you have no right to know about it.

So it's ok to participate in unethecial practices when no one is looking? I don't think so.

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no one is sacrificing a child at an alter or feeding it to the lions. These things are done so that others can live. Placing and removing an endotracheal tube is done for experience so when that provider needs to accomplish that skill it can be accomplished expeditiously and accurately.

I understand the "reasoning" but unless you have my consent you shouldn't be doing anything to MY child. I refused an autopsy for the reasons that my son had been through enough and I didn't want his body to be violated anymore. That is MY choice and MY decision. If things were done to him after he died I would be furious. There is ALWAYS a chance that someone will find out that something was done to their baby and I cannot even begin to imagine being responsible for more pain in their lives. :crying2:

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Because you think it is unethical does not make it so.

So it's ok to participate in unethecial practices when no one is looking? I don't think so.
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Like, mom23RN I also lost my child at an early age(11 mos). I would be horrified to discover this kind of thing happened to my child's body without my consent. It feels sneaky to me to do this without consent. What else do they do to these babies? :o

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Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
I am assuming that these "practice" cases are done when the family is not there. In that case, what's the harm? You're not taking organs or cutting open the body or anything like that- it would not alter to final appearance of the body and let's face reality- the body is dead- the soul- left for better places.

You and I share the belief that the soul leaves the body at death. Many others, my husband included, do not. He firmly believes that his earthly body is all he will ever have. Hence it would be inconceivable to him that anyone would "manipulate" it after his death. To perform such a procedure as practice upon his demise would be among the most disrespectful, offensive measures imaginable to him. For that reason, he chooses to forgo organ donation, autopsy, and any other invasive procedure after his death. And no one had better take it upon him/herself to do so. That would be an immense violation of patient and family trust.

It would be interesting to know what posters have worked in NICU or ICU settings for several years and which ones are new- only because I think it may affect how you approach some of these emotionally charged issues, especially the concept of mortality

11 years of NICU and OB experience have changed my opinions a bit regarding this type of practice, but not the way you may think. The hospital I mentioned where this practice took place was among my early places of employment. I was unsettled by the practice, but not strong enough to speak up about it. I left there, because so many things done there were unacceptable to me. With my increasing years of experience, I have become far MORE sensitive to the needs and treatment of vulnerable patients, and would no longer sit quietly by and tolerate this type of treatment.

Frankly, it somewhat surprises me that there are still facilities that do not recognize the sensitivity of this issue, and simply protect themselves by obtaining consent for this type of activity. I'm sure a lawyer and/or JCAHO would have a field day with this.

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Specializes in Transplant, homecare, hospice.
I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

Lord have mercy. I totally agree with you! How horrible!!!! :o

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