This cannot be ethical!

[sweetcheekers]

I was recently told during NRP training that a nurse was instructed at some point to always use the opportunity to practice intubation if a stillborn babe was available. I said, "Are you kidding me?" She said no and that she had the opportunity three times but just was unable to do it. I said that I felt that was extremely unethical and that using a patient's body (dead or alive) for learning purposes without proper consent was just plain WRONG! I don't care how great the learning opportunity, I would NEVER use another human to further my education without knowledge and consent of the patient or parents. Am I overreacting! This does not seem like a gray area to me.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

Because you think it is unethical does not make it so.

Because you think it's ok doesn't make it unethical.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

It feels sneaky to me to do this without consent.

Exactly.

[rambisisking]

I have always understood "character" as doing the right thing whether or not anyone was looking. I would think we obtain permission to perform procedures on patients due to the fact that it is not our right to do so without their permission or that of their parent or guardian. If these things are true then anyone who would do so willingly without permission because no one will know would lack character, and if I could not trust your character to honor that right, how would I be able to trust that my child would not be violated in some other way?

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

Have any of you read the consent forms you sign especially if being treated in a teaching institution? Often have language there regarding teaching medical staff. This is a long standard practice regarding the need to educate medical professionals. However, one that needs to be reviewed in light of today's practice mannequins readily available.

[HappyJaxRN]

Because you think it is unethical does not make it so.

Maybe from where you're from, but not where I'm from.

[Katnip, RN]

Because you think it is unethical does not make it so.

Sorry, but performing any procedure on a patient or their offspring without consent is unethical, whether that person is alive or not.

Just because someone is dead does not make them your personal practice dummy.

[rambisisking]

NRSKarenRN are you saying that people are giving consent in forms they are signing without understanding that?

[sweetcheekers]

As far as consent forms and teaching facilities, this is not a teaching facility and our consent forms contain no language which would permit this practice to be legal. As far as the importance of learning, I fully understand that learning the skill of intubation is very important, but regardless of the importance we cannot disregard the beliefs or feelings of patients or families in order to serve ourselves. I think we need to remember who we are there to serve. There are other "learning" opportunities such as the dummies we practice on. We also gain experience through the real life circumstances which require us to intubate. I think that if a person cannot see the harm in or reasons for not making use of the deceased baby then they should certainly have no problem making the parents aware that they would like to perform intubation in order to facilitate learning of the skill. If the parents have no issue, then proceed. Death of a human does in NO WAY give us the right to have our way with their remains.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

So why not simply obtain consent?

Because no parent is a right mind for a long time after the death of a child. I have had a stillborn baby and I would prefer that an anesthesia student (as I was a while ago) have the opportunity to intubate a baby. This may be your only opportunity to see the infant airway until you actually have to perform it when you're alone and have no back-up. That doesn't mean that we are anything but humbled and troubled while doing so. Just because I procedure is done on a corpse, doesn't imply that the practitioner is not observing the protocols of dignity.

[Katnip, RN]

That's still no excuse to not get consent. Parents who lose children are often asked for organ donation. They aren't in their right minds, either, but either they agree or not and that decision should be honored.

I know plenty of people who manage to intubate infants and children quite competently without practicing on those who have died.

[jmgrn65, RN]

I am appalled that anyone would think this is good practice, this blatantly unethical. Just like performing CPR on someone that is a DNR is wrong. Practicing intubation is just plain wrong. There are other ways to practice intubation. Go along with an anesthesiologist into surgery and practice with him on patients that are anesthetized. That is what my facility does, we are a teaching hospital and this is unheard of, I have worked in an ICU for many years and seen many deaths and this simply doesn't happen.

[Noryn]

This is extremely unethical. A person who has died has the same basic rights as a person who is alive. When this comes out in the public eye you are going to have families demanding to stay with their loved one until the funeral home picks them up. Residents do practice on dead people quite a bit, and if the attending doctor finds out often they are not happy. It never happened to any of my patients but if it had, I would have made my objections known.

Families and patients have a trust in us we cannot abuse. Whenever I talk with a patient or perform a procedure I do it in a matter that if it werent for patient privacy or consent, I would have no problem doing the same thing in front of their family or other professionals.

Education and experience are very important but basic human rights are even more important. That is more than a dead body--the person was a human being who loved and was loved. They arent something to be experimented on (unless they have signed a consent allowing for this).

When I see this practice being justified it makes me lose what little hope I have in the future of our health care system.