"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I agree, some patients are going to sit quietly without complaint to be a good patient. I know I don't always tell people "I don't want to hear about Jesus". To be polite, I sometimes just don't interrupt. It's the Southern Gentleman in me. :)

Did they ask your permission to speak first? I think the concensus has been to get permission to speak first, so if you gave them permission then it is the "polite" thing to listen. If they didn't ask, it is considered polite to tell them to "get the heck out" as long as you say please.;)

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
True, but the posts on the last couple of pages illustrate another reason why discussing religion with a patient can be a veritable minefield.

I certainly allow my patients to talk about their beliefs, and I do my best to watch for signs of spiritual need or distress; that's when I'd call in our Chaplain. I would also give him a 'heads-up' if I felt there could be spiritual issues arising, even before the patient made it apparent they felt so. (newly diagnosed, poor prognosis, family issues and stresses, etc.) He was very good at handling these problems (and not necessarily always from a religious standpoint, as I posted above), and he could often head off a real crisis. Our Chaplain was very much an active member of our patient-care team. He sincerely appreciated it when we called on him.

Something I've noticed working elsewhere is that the staff rarely call on the chaplain service. I just completed an assignment on a neuro unit at a trauma center. I never once saw the chaplain called in to assist these people who were most definitely in need. The first time I asked how to consult the chaplain for a patient and family, I simply got a blank look.

I'm wondering if chaplain services are being under-utilized? I think that would be the answer to many of these issues. They have the background and training to deal with this in a non-obtrusive/non-threatening manner.

But if you ask them if they want to see the chaplain, aren't you making a judgement that they need a chaplain?

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Specializes in LTC, Med/Surg, Peds, ICU, Tele.

Asking them if they want to see a chaplain is no more judgemental than asking them how many drinks a week they have or if they are up to date on their vaccines. Some people don't believe in vaccines, but we still ask everyone.

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Specializes in ER, ICU, L&D, OR.

Reading all this, I must be a good christian. I won't golf on Sundays

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Specializes in School Nursing.
reading all this, i must be a good christian. i won't golf on sundays

too cute t-tom !! now just don't shove this information down someones throat ! :uhoh3:

praiser

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Specializes in Med-Surg.
Did they ask your permission to speak first? I think the concensus has been to get permission to speak first, so if you gave them permission then it is the "polite" thing to listen. If they didn't ask, it is considered polite to tell them to "get the heck out" as long as you say please.;)

I'm no longer in the Bible belt, but I'm so used to people talking about their faith I don't interrupt.

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Reading all this, I must be a good christian. I won't golf on Sundays

Gee Tom, I must be the ultimate Christian, I won't golf on any day of the week...;)

and once or twice a year I spend an evening praying to the Lord Calvert....

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But if you ask them if they want to see the chaplain, aren't you making a judgement that they need a chaplain?

Somewhere on here I posted that part of our admission procedure was to ask if the patient wanted to be included on the list the chaplain received of all new admits. So if they didn't want to be on there, he wouldn't visit them.

As far as my judgment of them needing a chaplain, if I felt the patient or family was having a spiritual issue I would alert the chaplain service. I think it's under-utilized in most other places I've worked.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
Somewhere on here I posted that part of our admission procedure was to ask if the patient wanted to be included on the list the chaplain received of all new admits. So if they didn't want to be on there, he wouldn't visit them.

As far as my judgment of them needing a chaplain, if I felt the patient or family was having a spiritual issue I would alert the chaplain service. I think it's under-utilized in most other places I've worked.

Sorry, I meant to put a smiley on that comment. I was being facetious. I think chaplains are great and my institution has a question on the admission form that asks religious preference and if they would like to see the chaplain. I still don't think, however, that having a conversation w/ one of my pts about Jesus is unethical, which was the original question. Honestly, I have never presented the gospel to a pt. b/c I have never been asked to but I have been asked specific questions and I answer them. I am up front that I'm a So. Baptist and my beliefs may not be what they've been taught and I ask permission b/f going farther. If they ask me to continue at that point I will if they hesitate or don't out right give permission, I don't. This is not unethical. It is a pt. driven, pt. centered response to a pt. initiated request for information.

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Sorry, I meant to put a smiley on that comment. I was being facetious. I think chaplains are great and my institution has a question on the admission form that asks religious preference and if they would like to see the chaplain. I still don't think, however, that having a conversation w/ one of my pts about Jesus is unethical, which was the original question. Honestly, I have never presented the gospel to a pt. b/c I have never been asked to but I have been asked specific questions and I answer them. I am up front that I'm a So. Baptist and my beliefs may not be what they've been taught and I ask permission b/f going farther. If they ask me to continue at that point I will if they hesitate or don't out right give permission, I don't. This is not unethical. It is a pt. driven, pt. centered response to a pt. initiated request for information.
I see nothing wrong with that.
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Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Yes, there are a lot of Christians who do not know the history behind the Bible. I've studied the history behind the Bible, the canonization, how it was edited and how the words/message have been lost in translation. Look at all the different translations we have today of the Bible. I've also read some of the heretical scriptures such as the Gnostic gospels. These gospels were rather interesting yet shocking at the same time. After reading the Gnostic gospels, you will see why it was left out of the Bible when it was canonized. So I keep the history of the Bible in mind at all times. However, the history of the Bible does not discount its message, validity, or authority. I will always use the Bible as my guide for Christian life. :)

The message the Bible gives is interpeted by the person who reads it and each person has their own interpetation and impression on it. I can understand how and why a person may decide to use it as a guide, but I can also see (since it is my own perspective on it), why people don't. I have received the same sort of inspiration and courage from other readings including the Buddist, Zen, as well as many others. It does make me wonder why those other books were removed as well.

I am glad to see that you have found as much solice in your beliefs as I have in mine.

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Oh my goodness, I went away at page 32, and now that I'm back, I have nearly twenty pages to fill in!!

And you know what? The upshot is the same as it was twenty pages back: those who don't see a problem with asking if they've found Jesus won't change their minds, regardless of what anyone else says. They believe they have not only the right, but the obligation to discuss these matters. And those who think it's wrong for the nurse to bring up religion, ANY religion, with a patient won't change their minds to believe it's ok.

So what have we learned? Only that each of us firmly believes what we believe. The crazy thing is we just can't seem to come to terms on what those "patient needs" are! To some, it's "spreading the Word", and will only stop if the patient states firmly and unequivocally that they don't want to hear it. And to others, it's offering religious viewpoints only if the patient states firmly and unequivocally that they do.

Bottom line is there will always be nurses who respect the patient's boundaries and ones who won't, period. The ones who don't absolutely do NOT believe they ARE overstepping, so how can they be taught that they are? Answer: they can't.

Some may find themselves fired from a job or two because of it, and they will adamently refuse to find the fault within themselves: they will insist the facility was wrong, they were misunderstood, they were "persecuted", etc etc.

I see some people calling others hypocrites because they don't speak/live/work a certain way. They ask for slack because of "others" who are not really "good" (fill in the religious membership). Really? And just who is it that recognizes the hypocrite in themselves for doing the same thing? No one.

All of which leads me to the same conclusion I had when I first began reading this thread. That matters of medical healing and emotional support as dictated by the patient's own directives are what we attend to. And that's it. What I believe about an afterlife or lack thereof is not something I will "share" with my patients unless SPECIFICALLY asked. And in my own personal opinion, NO ONE should "share" their viewpoints on same unless SPECIFICALLY ASKED. That does NOT mean "so, what do you think happens to you after you die"! Yikes. Talk about a fishing expedition designed to open up the conversation, or in other words, make the patient "bring up" the subject. Wrong on all counts.

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