fronkey bean

I know this has already been said but withdrawing tx that artificially prolongs life and providing comfort measures is not the same as giving someone who would otherwise live weeks, months or even years a substance to immediately end their lives.

It is their "fault" They made a choice to bypass the legal method of entry into this country therefore any consequences are theirs alone to bear. That is exactly what you are doing when you say it is not an illegal immigrants fault that they are here illegally. And, as far as the rest of the world not seeing things the way we do, it is not their country. It's easy to tell someone else what is the "right" thing to do when you have nothing to lose. Much of the rest of the world bases their view of the US on movies and our media both of which are not always accurate in how they portray average Americans. Illegal immigration does impact working people. This is just one example. BTW, anyone who believes that II's only take jobs Americans don't want should talk to my brother-in-law who is finding it harder and harder to make a living as a dry waller b/c contractors can pay II's less. I hope everything works out w/ the IRS for you Irish. We've been debating since the 80's when Reagan gave amnesty to the II's in country at the time and even before that. At some point we have to channel all the talk into some action. I'm okay w/ shelving the talk of deportation if, in the meantime, we can stop the flow of illegals coming across the border. It is no less than what Mexico is doing on their southern border. Elvish, I really hope things work out for you. Your husband, obviously, is not the problem - illegal immigration and its cost to this country is. I can't go to New Zealand and expect them to let me stay there just b/c I managed to get in their country. American can survive w/o II labor. I saw a report on the news just the other day about teenagers not being able to find summer jobs b/c so many adults were picking up second jobs. I'm not suggesting that teens could or should do all the jobs II's do now but there are obviously a lot of folks looking for a few extra dollars who don't mind talking unglamorous low paying jobs.

I agree being born here shouldn't automatically give you citizenship but I didn't think that that rule had been reversed.

I don't know how it works elsewhere but here my manager keeps a running list of night shifters who want to go to days and as a slot opens the one who has the most senority gets it. It shouldn't matter why you want to go to day shift, there are dozens of reasons people changed shifts or depts. just tell her you want to transfer next time and opening is available and find out if you need to fill out a form, it should be that simple.

not at all, and perhaps not having lived in the us you completely miss the point being directed primarily at my fellow countrymen. unfortunately, the u.s. populace tends to be extremely lititagous. burglers sue and win for damages from an injury during a home invasion, parents sue physicans and hospitals for newborns with congential defects..i'm sure this trend is common knowledge internationally. many americans have abdicated personal responsibility, and would be horrified to learn that there are parts of the world where one's own actions or lack thereof have impact on outcomes. lack of or wait for availabilty of our current high-tech interventions would not be widely acceptable to american health care consumers, who are apt to sue a hospital if their breakfast is cold (yes, exageration for point.) and, to bring it all back to topic, the discussion is how universal health care would impact the usa, and whether or not european models are appropriate for comparison. the point is and remains that european models are not appropriate for comparison due to the points already listed. ps-we americans have an aversion to both taxes and lack of freedom to choose our own destinies, in case the 1700's have slipped your mind.:usarm: vet, wife, and mom that actually might be the only good thing about uhc. since you can't sue the gov't lawsuits might go down. i was going to reply to this but then fizz said it so much better than i could that i thought i would just repost that reply. excellent points despite the objections. as catshowlady below and others (even some from uhc countries) have pointed out not every one in uhc countries is happy w/ their system. just as it is a mistake to generalize americans it is a mistake to generalize that a few people being happy w/ the system means it works well overall. this is not an isolated occurance (witness the post earlier about the canadian man who had to get tx for his brain tumor in the u.s. the point is that no system is going to serve everyone equally. there are always some who slip through the cracks. rather than trying to completly redo our system for one that is also flawed, why don't we try to fix some of the cracks? for some reason, americans tend to try to fix problems by throwing more and more money at them. this hasn't worked for out schools, or our justice system, or the war, etc. etc., and it won't work for health care. lets not spend who knows how many billions to completely overhaul a system that works about 80% of the time for another system that works mabey 80% of the time. lets spend fewer resources and try to fix our system and let the canadians fix what doesn't work about theirs.

So they're spending less on their citizens than americans spend on themselves-- does that mean they're getting a better deal or does it mean that their citizens are getting fewer services? I don't agree that our system is " horribly broken". There is certainly room for improvement but it works very well in a majority of the cases. The American gov't isn't uniquely incompetent -- other governments are just as incompetent. That is why taxes in these countries go up and services become harder and harder to come by. I have a friend who takes regular trips to Romania and under there UHC program if you go to have a baby you had better have a "gift" for the MD if you want him/her to show up at the hospital to deliver your baby. Of course there are compromises. It is just in the current political environment compromise is considered traitorous by both sides.

not as much as in countries w/ UHC where my taxes would go through the roof.

Again the same tired stuff. Individual expenditures, i.e. out of pocket expenses. Even w/ high out of pocket expenses we still come off cheaper b/c we're not paying the outrageous taxes that countries w/ socialized medicine pay. The reason the same tired objections keep coming up is b/c the same tired flawed reasoning for UHC keeps coming up.

I'm not sure where you work but they need to upgrade their philosophy on orientation. New employees to our ICU have a structured orientation program and they don't move to the next stage until they and their preceptor are comfortable with their abilities in the current stage. It can range from about 6 weeks for an experienced employee to a few months for a new grad or a new to critical care employee. It is a new program and not all the kinks are worked out yet but it gives employees a chance to get comfortable w/ their job before being all on their own.

Sometimes it is not just a matter of knowing where to look something up or even what to look up, sometimes its a matter of knowing that you need to look something up! I agree that our nursing programs need to give students more bedside experience but there is no way you can experience everything before you graduate. I can read about a dozen or more pts in a shifts time but I can only take care of 2-3 in ICU. Granted, I don't remember everything I read, but I don't remember every pt. I've had either. Over the course of my life I've had thousands of meals but I only remember a handful of the very good or the very bad ones. In spite of that they provided me with the nutrition I needed. Similarly, I don't remember all the info I've been exposed to over the years but it has all nourished my mind and , I believe, made me a better nurse.

The key words are "out of pocket expenses". Add up what they pay in taxes and I'm betting their pockets would be emptier than ours. P. S. Hey Viking, how about some new graphics and cartoons? These have already been seen and responded to in other posts.

Someone should have hooked this guy up w/ the drug co.s. Everyone thinks their heartless b/c they have to turn a profit but most have programs in place for those who can't afford their meds. Also, many hospitals have programs in place to help provide meds and services to those who can't afford it (it is cheaper for them to do this than have pts who can't afford to pay their bills return to the hosp. in distress b/c they couldn't afford their meds. ).

Tell that to the soldiers at Walter Reed

One of the reasons insurance premiums are so high for everyone is the huge payouts insurance co.s have to pay for people whose lifestyle - smoking, overeating, lack of exercise, high risk sports, excessive alcohol, etc - have led to chronic and expensive illnesses. When insurance co.s have to spend a lot of money on these kinds of cases then they pass the cost on to all consumers including, unfortunately, your mom. They come here to avoid the waits it sometimes takes to get routine tests done there, at least the rich do. The poor get stuck in line waiting, kind of like they do here. Your statistics are alittle misleading. While Canadians do live a little longer than Americans, if you check out the WHO wbsite (sorry I'm computer illiterate and don't know how to put it in my post) you'll find that many more Americans die young due to violence which somewhat skews the stats. While I am generally in favor of out current sytem, this is one thing that certainly needs fixing. I would like to see one candidate on either side propose someway for people in transition (either changeing jobs, going to school or searching for a new job after being downsized) to keep their insurance at their current rate until they are once again covered under a new policy. No one can afford COBRA payments. Also, there should be a better system for those w/ jobs that have no or poor insurance to affordably supplement their insurance.

One other thought RN2B, we have strict visiting hours where I work so I try to get my assessments and tx's done prior to visiting time so that I don't cut in on family's time w/ the pt. I do try to get in to introduce myself to the fam. and answer any questions but in ICU I only have 2-3 pts. and even then it sometimes just isn't possible.