"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

Specializes in ER/Trauma.
was talking about how Christians differ in what they consider a sin.
Ok.

How is that that you just quoted above, different from:

So a Lutheran's definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Calvinist definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Pentacoastal definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Catholic's definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Baptist definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Mennonite definition of "wrongdoing against god" ???

?

I understand and agree that "Christians" have different opinions on what counts as "sin". I simply brought the point up because of your initial post and...

.... particularly beccause of your: " To me, a sin is simply a wrongdoing or anything against God." post...

cheers,

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Specializes in I have an interest in Travel and OB/L&D.
Really? :confused:

For example: You think the "Catholic definition of Christianity" is the 'same definition' as the "Protestant definition of Christianity" ?

I guess you do, since you say "Yep, looks like the same definition to me".

I'm just curious because if all the definitions amongst the various branches of Christianity "matched together" - why does Christianity still have it's different denominations?

cheers,

Ummmm, I'm not sure what you're talking about? I was saying "Yep, looks like the same definition to me" in regards to the definition of sin among different types of Christians... not the definition of Christianity. I see why you were confused. Go back and read the post that I replied to. ;)

To answer your question, I think there are different denominations among Christianity because of the lack of unity. So many Christians have different fundamental beliefs on certain things.

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Specializes in I have an interest in Travel and OB/L&D.
Ok.

How is that that you just quoted above, different from:

?

I understand and agree that "Christians" have different opinions on what counts as "sin". I simply brought the point up because of your initial post and...

.... particularly beccause of your: " To me, a sin is simply a wrongdoing or anything against God." post...

cheers,

HUH??? :lol2: Not trying to be rude or anything, but I am literally confused at what you're trying to ask me. I guess I will just have to lay out the exchanges of replies going back and forth:

Emmanuel Goldstein: "not every Christian agrees on what is a sin ;)"

AspiringBlackNurse: "Really? Interesting. What do some Christians think a sin is? To me, a sin is simply a wrongdoing or anything against God.

jlsRN: "People differ wildly on what they think is wrong. There are many issues that Christians differ on, such as abortion, sexual matters, birth control, style of dress, etc and so forth."

AspiringBlackNurse: "Oh, now I see what you're saying. I knew that...I don't want to get into those issues here in this thread. ;)"

*Now, here is a totally different conversation...you responded to my post about my definition of sin in the middle of the other conversation:

Roy Fokker: "So a Lutheran's definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Calvinist definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Pentacoastal definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Catholic's definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Baptist definition of "wrongdoing against god" is the same as a Mennonite definition of "wrongdoing against god" ???"

AspiringBlackNurse: Yep, looks like the same definition to me, but jlsRN clarified with me that she was talking about how Christians differ in what they consider a sin. (For example, some Christians think it's okay to have abortion and some Christians think it's wrong).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hope that answers your question. ;)

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Specializes in DOU.

I was taught that a Christian was simply someone who believes in the divinity of Jesus - nothing more and nothing less. One can be a "good" or "bad" Christian based on their behaviors, but they are Christian none the less IF they believe.

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Specializes in Med-Surg.
I was taught that a Christian was simply someone who believes in the divinity of Jesus - nothing more and nothing less. One can be a "good" or "bad" Christian based on their behaviors, but they are Christian none the less IF they believe.

Right. Christians simply believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins. Most can agree on this.

It goes a little differently from that point on. LOL

However, we shouldn't talk religion and stray too far from the topic of patient care issues. :)

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Specializes in School Nursing.
right. christians simply believe jesus is the son of god who died for their sins. most can agree on this.

it goes a little differently from that point on. lol

however, we shouldn't talk religion and stray too far from the topic of patient care issues. :)

thank you !

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Right. Christians simply believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins. Most can agree on this.

It goes a little differently from that point on. LOL

However, we shouldn't talk religion and stray too far from the topic of patient care issues. :)

True, but the posts on the last couple of pages illustrate another reason why discussing religion with a patient can be a veritable minefield.

I certainly allow my patients to talk about their beliefs, and I do my best to watch for signs of spiritual need or distress; that's when I'd call in our Chaplain. I would also give him a 'heads-up' if I felt there could be spiritual issues arising, even before the patient made it apparent they felt so. (newly diagnosed, poor prognosis, family issues and stresses, etc.) He was very good at handling these problems (and not necessarily always from a religious standpoint, as I posted above), and he could often head off a real crisis. Our Chaplain was very much an active member of our patient-care team. He sincerely appreciated it when we called on him.

Something I've noticed working elsewhere is that the staff rarely call on the chaplain service. I just completed an assignment on a neuro unit at a trauma center. I never once saw the chaplain called in to assist these people who were most definitely in need. The first time I asked how to consult the chaplain for a patient and family, I simply got a blank look.

I'm wondering if chaplain services are being under-utilized? I think that would be the answer to many of these issues. They have the background and training to deal with this in a non-obtrusive/non-threatening manner.

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Specializes in Utilization Management.

Something I've noticed working elsewhere is that the staff rarely call on the chaplain service. I just completed an assignment on a neuro unit at a trauma center. I never once saw the chaplain called in to assist these people who were most definitely in need. The first time I asked how to consult the chaplain for a patient and family, I simply got a blank look.

I'm wondering if chaplain services are being under-utilized? I think that would be the answer to many of these issues. They have the background and training to deal with this in a non-obtrusive/non-threatening manner.

That question is part of our admission database, along with other questions for abuse screening. I always tell people who refuse, "If you change your mind about any of these things, your nurse will be happy to help get whatever you need" and I encourage them to feel free to ask questions about anything.

Most of the time by the time they get to the hospital, they have their spiritual ducks in a row, so to speak. They know, much as the respondents on this thread, pretty much what they believe and most are not interested in changing.

Therefore, my best witness method is to walk the walk rather than talk the talk.

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I view our chaplin as a resource, similar as a respiratory therapist, physical therapist, etc.

Every admit is asked whether he/she would like the hospital chaplin to visit, and whether he/she would like to have their own spiritual leader notified of their hospitalization. Clicking yes to either of those (we are computerized) automatically generates a consult with the chaplin, who takes care of contacting the pt's spiritual leader and/or meeting with the pt, as appropriate. If they need someone before 8am, we call the chaplin or the person the pt designates ourselves, to come in immediately.

I am not an expert on spirituality and religion, no matter how much I have studied and experienced. Our chaplin has a theology degree, and is well versed in how to support people of all walks of life. We have a very diverse population here, from very conservative and traditional Mennonites to liberal Wiccans, and everything in between. As a NURSE, I would never even begin to think that I could offer spiritual guidance to ANY of these people. Human support and compassion, yes. Active listening, yes. Answering spiritual queries, no way is that the job of a floor nurse. A chaplin or a parish nurse, yes. A floor nurse, no.

I am not an expert on RT, either. Sure, I'll do an assessment, but if I have a concern or a patient who isn't responding to a standard therapy, you bet I'm going to call in RT to help me out. If there is a cpap/bipap involved, even if we are well versed in how to use it, we are STILL required to call RT to change settings, etc, because the way our hospital rolls, it is the RTs job to manage these things, in collaboration with the nurse and physician.

If I have a pt who is not responding to standard compassionate care, and is needing specific spiritual guidance, even if I feel I am qualified by my education, life experiences, etc to give it, I still consult the chaplin and let her handle this. My role here is not as spiritual guide, my role is the nurse. We have a specialist in this role and she is the chaplin. That is what she is for. I view her as a part of our care team the same as I view RT, PT, the dietician, and other coworkers.

While providing for spiritual care is my job, it is NOT my job to actually provide that spiritual care. I see that there are those who would disagree with me, as evidenced by some of the comments on this thread. Meh. We're all different.

But I think you are exceeding your scope of practice if you are a standard floor nurse and you think it is your place to offer spiritual guidance even when the patient asks. If it is your hospital policy to do so, fine, I guess you might feel that you have to--I personally would call the pt's spiritual advisor or the on-call chaplin. But if your hospital has a chaplin to address these issues, I would no more offer active spiritual guidance to a patient than I would adjust the settings on their vent instead of calling RT to do so.

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Specializes in Neuro.
"Mr. Jones, I have been meaning to talk to you about your cholesterol levels. You need to take a pill to lower those levels as well as change your diet. No more salt or fatty foods for you." said Nurse Smith.

"Nurse, I do not wish to discuss this." replied Mr. Jones.

"You may wish to avoid this conversation about your cholesterol, but it doesn't change the facts. Your life depends on addressing these problems," Nurse Smith responded.

"But," replies Mr. Jones, "this is a private matter and has nothing to do with you. How inappropriate of you to bring up these issues, Nurse."

Half an hour later in the nurses station, Dr. Hart is discussing Mr. Jones with Nurse Smith as the charge nurse approaches.

"If we don't get Mr. Jones to address these health issues including his cholestrol and his diet, those stents we just put in are going to clog. He'll end up needing open heart and that doesn't really solve his problems. Nurse, we have to get him on board with this." Dr. Hart leaves the station.

"Jane," says the charge nurse to Nurse Smith. "I am afraid that you have offended Mr. Smith. He said that you brought up issues he does not wish to discuss. He wants you reprimanded for inflicting your views upon him. Maybe it would be better if you don't discuss these matters with him."

It isn't about religion. It is about a personal relationship with Jesus. It is okay to bring it up casually to see if the pt wishes to discuss spiritual issues. It is most frequently at night that patients wish to discuss this. As someone who has faced a potentially fatal disease, the afterlife is on your mind a great deal. We have to respect boundaries, not force the topic on someone, but asking us not to say anything at all is like asking Nurse Smith to take no action to save Mr. Jones.

But my job isn't to "save" Mr. Jones. My job is to educate Mr. Jones about the course of action recommended by his doctor in order for him to make educated decisions about his treatment.

I had a patient in clinicals one time who had really bad heart disease and diabetes and was in the hospital due to a DVT. We had him on a cardiac and diabetic diet and he refused to eat anything on any of his meal trays. I charted that he ate nothing and asked him if there was something else he preferred, he said no. A few minutes later, his wife came into his room bearing breakfast sandwiches from Wendy's, which he ate about 3 of. At the discretion of the nurse I worked with, I simply went in and explained to my pt why his doctor had prescribed the hospital's diet, the benefits of maintaining that diet, etc. I didn't say "You can't eat Wendy's anymore" because I can't do that -- he has the right to refuse his meal tray. I can't save this guy from another DVT, a heart attack, going to h-e- double hockey sticks, or anything else. All I could do was educate him about the diet so he could make an educated decision about whether or not to follow it.

And before anyone clammers "But I just want to educate my pts about "the Jesus factor" so they can make educated decisions..." I still think it's outside of my role as a nurse to do this. I can certainly do a spiritual assessment as JCAHO requires to identify any spiritual distress, I can use therapeutic communication techniques to allow my patient to speak about their concerns, and I can refer my patient to the appropriate resources (such as the chaplain) if they want.

One of the toughest parts for many people trying therapeutic communication techniques is not talking too much. There are very few times when it is therapeutic to share my own experience with the patient. I should be asking questions of my patient to get them to share their own experience with me, and we can use that information to move forward. To me, this would be like a nurse saying "You seem depressed. I was depressed one time and took Wellbutrin and it really helped! You should try it!" as opposed to "You seem depressed. You may want to consider discussing these feelings with your doctor. There is a wide variety of medications and other treatments available that may help you. Would you like me to have him come talk to you about these options?" Similarly, I feel it is untherapeutic for the nurse to say "You seem concerned about your fate after death. I found Jesus to be my savior, so now I get to go to heaven! You should try it!" as opposed to "You seem concerned about your fate after death. Would you like to discuss these feelings with me, or with the chaplain?"

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Specializes in Med-Surg.
One of the toughest parts for many people trying therapeutic communication techniques is not talking too much. There are very few times when it is therapeutic to share my own experience with the patient?"

You're whole post was excellent, but I highlighted the above because I think this is very important.

Sometimes as they say "you gotta take the cotton out of your ears and put in your mouth". :lol2:

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Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
You're right OP didn't say the pt had inquired. She also didn't say the pt had not inquired. Truth is she doesn't know b/c she wasn/t in the room. Sincerely believing I know the way to heaven doesn't make me automatically pushy.

I do stand corrected there...the OP didn't specify that fact, so, clearly, we really don't know. There are many people in the medical profession that do this, though. I have seen it often before I became a nurse, and it is violating them. And, no, you are not being pushy because of what you believe.

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