"The Jesus Factor"

[FireStarterRN]

A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

[debblynn13]

So I've read all 43 pages. It has been interesting and as a hospice nurse at times unnerving. I do agree with the person who said you have to be careful even with christian denominations. We all have different rituals and beliefs that make us comfortable or uncomfortable. An example of this happened at my hospice.

Our hospice chaplain was having a bad day and came out to the house for a little support. One of our nurses in her caring way offered to pray with/for her. Even tho the chaplain knew they didn't see eye to eye on religon she felt cornered into saying yes. The nurse prayed for her to be covered in the blood of Jesus. The chaplain told me she had be brought up on a farm and had helped slaughter many animals. So this phrase gave her a weird feeling. To her being covered in blood was a very physical feeling of being warm and sticky. She felt this way even tho she knew the religous meaning behind what the nurse had prayed. So ultimately the nurse who had been trying to help ....by not assessing traditions and backgrounds she ended up making the chaplain feel worse.

This is why I leave most of the spiritual stuff to the chaplain and clergy. I don't have the time to assess completely where a person is in their faith or their traditions. I am much too busy with other nursing responsibilities. Luckily we have two very wonderful chaplains that are capable and available 24/7.

Also I have attended quite a few deathbeds and being from the midwest most have been pretty traditional christian families. But even with that, most people that I have talked to haven't been worried about being dead. They are more worried about the process of getting there.

Lastly beware. I have seen nurses suspended for being too vocal in their faith. So it can make a difference in a persons employment.

Debblynn

[MuddaMia]

"Mr. Jones, I have been meaning to talk to you about your cholesterol levels. You need to take a pill to lower those levels as well as change your diet. No more salt or fatty foods for you." said Nurse Smith.

"Nurse, I do not wish to discuss this." replied Mr. Jones.

"You may wish to avoid this conversation about your cholesterol, but it doesn't change the facts. Your life depends on addressing these problems," Nurse Smith responded.

"But," replies Mr. Jones, "this is a private matter and has nothing to do with you. How inappropriate of you to bring up these issues, Nurse."

Half an hour later in the nurses station, Dr. Hart is discussing Mr. Jones with Nurse Smith as the charge nurse approaches.

"If we don't get Mr. Jones to address these health issues including his cholestrol and his diet, those stents we just put in are going to clog. He'll end up needing open heart and that doesn't really solve his problems. Nurse, we have to get him on board with this." Dr. Hart leaves the station.

"Jane," says the charge nurse to Nurse Smith. "I am afraid that you have offended Mr. Smith. He said that you brought up issues he does not wish to discuss. He wants you reprimanded for inflicting your views upon him. Maybe it would be better if you don't discuss these matters with him."

Are you SERIOUS? I have tried to keep quiet...but C'MON! Nursie in this scenario is discussing MEDICAL fact. You are comparing this to discussing religion??? Listen, religion is based on FAITH , not evidence based science. Many believe the bible to be a work of fiction...a fairy tale for adults to make them sleep better at night. ANd you speak of Jesus...do you not have Jewish patients? Do they need to accept Jesus for you also?

This is ridiculous!:trout:

[pagandeva2000, LPN]

I think the key is not speaking about something unless you have been invited to. I can see a pt not wanting to tell a nurse to shut up and go away or to report her/him, but not if they asked for the info.

The OP didn't say anything about the patient inquiring about Jesus. It seemed as though the nurse made the assumption that she had the only route for his/her salvation.

Are you SERIOUS? I have tried to keep quiet...but C'MON! Nursie in this scenario is discussing MEDICAL fact. You are comparing this to discussing religion??? Listen, religion is based on FAITH , not evidence based science. Many believe the bible to be a work of fiction...a fairy tale for adults to make them sleep better at night. ANd you speak of Jesus...do you not have Jewish patients? Do they need to accept Jesus for you also?

This is ridiculous!:trout:

And also, the Patient Bill of Rights states that the client has the right to know his diagnosis as well as the risks involved with treatment. Most patients do not come to the hospital for religious healing, they come for physiological healing. Once a person is stable, they are better able to make life and spiritual decisions.

[fronkey bean]

Skrawberri-

"although God says we are all destined for hell without Jesus".....

could you please cite the exact Bible location of this quote? Thanks...

Cannulator,this is an answer that would involve several different verses and a presentation of the gospel which is not the pupose of this thread. we are not trying prove our belief, we are just trying to debate if it is ok to talk about it. However, if the moderators say it is ok and strawberri doesn't answer, I'll get back to you on that point.

[fronkey bean]

The OP didn't say anything about the patient inquiring about Jesus. It seemed as though the nurse made the assumption that she had the only route for his/her salvation.

You're right OP didn't say the pt had inquired. She also didn't say the pt had not inquired. Truth is she doesn't know b/c she wasn/t in the room. Sincerely believing I know the way to heaven doesn't make me automatically pushy.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Might I just add that the patient also has a right to eat improperly and be fat and inactive. I don't badger my patients about their lifestyles either. There's no point in beating a dead horse and you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

[prmenrs, RN]

Again, I believe that the best interest of the pt in any setting is for the nurse to utilize the skills she has learned w/re: active listening, reflection etc., to help the pt determine his/her OWN beliefs; to clarify them HIMSELF, not to speak the nurse's own beliefs.

You want to help the pt come to their own conclusions, not impose your values upon them. That is not your role.

I might also mention that you (meaning the nurse in question) may not have time to spend more than 15-20 minutes @ the most @ the bedside. You will have many tasks to complete: meds, treatments, dressings, supervising ancillary personnel. And you will have more than one pt. to provide care for.

[CritterLover, BSN, RN]

mr. jones, i have been meaning to talk to you about your cholesterol levels. you need to take a pill to lower those levels as well as change your diet. no more salt or fatty foods for you." said nurse smith.

"nurse, i do not wish to discuss this." replied mr. jones.

"you may wish to avoid this conversation about your cholesterol, but it doesn't change the facts. your life depends on addressing these problems," nurse smith responded.

"but," replies mr. jones, "this is a private matter and has nothing to do with you. how inappropriate of you to bring up these issues, nurse."

half an hour later in the nurses station, dr. hart is discussing mr. jones with nurse smith as the charge nurse approaches.

"if we don't get mr. jones to address these health issues including his cholestrol and his diet, those stents we just put in are going to clog. he'll end up needing open heart and that doesn't really solve his problems. nurse, we have to get him on board with this." dr. hart leaves the station.

"jane," says the charge nurse to nurse smith. "i am afraid that you have offended mr. smith. he said that you brought up issues he does not wish to discuss. he wants you reprimanded for inflicting your views upon him. maybe it would be better if you don't discuss these matters with him."

it isn't about religion. it is about a personal relationship with jesus. it is okay to bring it up casually to see if the pt wishes to discuss spiritual issues. it is most frequently at night that patients wish to discuss this. as someone who has faced a potentially fatal disease, the afterlife is on your mind a great deal. we have to respect boundaries, not force the topic on someone, but asking us not to say anything at all is like asking nurse smith to take no action to save mr. jones.

might i just add that the patient also has a right to eat improperly and be fat and inactive. i don't badger my patients about their lifestyles either. there's no point in beating a dead horse and you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

true.

but as nurses, it is our responsibility to educate them on the proper diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc....correct?

in fact, diet/medication/lifestyle education for chf patients at discharge is one of the cms standards for quality care for chf patients.

i had a 23 yr old diabetic pt this weekend. blood sugar >600. no pcp. buys his insulin at walgreens. "manages" his insulin himself. checks his blood sugar on occasion, when he has time. came to the er because his feet were swollen, open, and draining. he got some serious education from me. he didn't want to hear it. he told me so. now, i'm not going to delude myself into thinking that he really listened to me. (though i'm pretty sure his wife did listen to me, so that helps). and i didn't beat him over the head with what i told him, but maybe some of it got through. it doesn't really matter; it was still part of my job to educate him on his disease process and management, even though he was a reluctant audiance.

however, as a nurse in a traditional hospital setting, it is not part of our responsibility to educate the patient on the christian way, correct??

i have to think that some of the nursing students will learn in school that it is not appropriate to discuss religion with one's patients, unless the patient specifically requests. and even if the patient does specifically request the discussion, one must still tread very lightly and carefully. as has been said before, not all christians have identical beliefs. part of the job of instructors in nursing school is to help future nurses identify boundries, and learn not to cross them. which is why i found the following disturbing:

the florida hospital where i'm getting my rn to bsn is a christian operated hospital the nursing students there are required in their clinicals to offer to pray with patients.

while i don't disagree that a private christian hospital should be able to have this policy, it bothers me that these nursing students arn't going to be learning that it might not be acceptable to cross this boundry in all employment settings.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Again, I believe that the best interest of the pt in any setting is for the nurse to utilize the skills she has learned w/re: active listening, reflection etc., to help the pt determine his/her OWN beliefs; to clarify them HIMSELF, not to speak the nurse's own beliefs.

You want to help the pt come to their own conclusions, not impose your values upon them. That is not your role.

.

I agree with you here it should be about the patient and listening and reflection should be the two most important things. We forget those skills as soon as we leave nursing school, because like all humans we like to hear ourselves talk about ourselves. Leslie said earlier and I think it's bears repeating that these issues, especially among the dying, should be handled with care.

If a patient says "I wonder what happens after death", the nurse shouldn't reply "well I'm a Christian and...........". The nurse should reflect back "what do you believe happens after you die?".....or simply repeat the question "so you're wondering what happens after you die?" and not worry about the Jesus Factor.

The nurses could and should instigate spiritual care. As is said earlier, it's a JACHO mandate. Patient centered holist care is important.

I'm thinking most of the time it not "o.k. as long as the patient brings it up". If a patient asks "are you a Christian" the answer should still be one that get the nurse listening and the patient talking of himself "yes I am, tell me about your religion/spirituality". If a patient asks "what do you think" relfect it back "what do YOU think?" or "I'm a Christian...what do you think?" And yes there are going to be many Christian patients that you can relate to and talk to. But I'd venture to say there are going to be few that are looking to be saved by you. Patients want to be heard and listened to, basically know that they are going to be o.k. They don't want to be judged. People want to talk about themselves. So most of the time if they are asking questions about you, you should quickly answer and turn the focus back ont he patient.

If the nurse is sitting there thinking "I'm so concerned about this poor soul going to hell. I need to share the love of Jesus/take care of the Jesus factor/looking for the opportunity because Jesus is love and he/she needs to know this......." that just doesn't sit well with me. I realize that's the extreme person and most don't do that. We should spend as llittle time talking about ourselves and our religion and get the patient talking....even if they ask us about ourselves.

[SweetLadyJ]

AspiringBlackNurse [Yep, there's so much division and rebellion among Christians in this world today.]

Aren't we, the United States of America, currently engaged in a war with a group of Muslims that are behaving exactly as what you just said about Christians?? (just thought I would throw that out there that division isn't unique to any ONE group of people in the world...not since Cain an Abel.)

I realize that. I wasn't saying that Christians are the only group that has division.

My point is: It doesn't have a dang thing to do with bein' a Christian, or Muslim, or any other "ism".....it has to do with being a solid, caring, competent nurse.....We weren't hired based on our religious beliefs....(otherwise, there would be a whole lot of employers out there that would have their collective fannies in a sling!)We were hired based on our educational background and skill sets.

I know nurses aren't hired based on religious beliefs. But you have to realize that everyone has beliefs and just because you are hired as a nurse based on educational background and skill sets doesn't mean you should just totally suppress your religious beliefs. Some will be willing to share, some will not. It doesn't mean all nurses should just totally hush up about their beliefs.

I know many of you are saying that because you are Christians you "should witness" or "Should preach the gospel".....and I am saying that you SHOULD read that WHOLE passage in it's context and tone again....

Jesus didn't say, "Uh, kids...it's time to go out and grill people on their death beds, and tell them all about their sins, and let them know they are going straight to H-E-Double-Toothpicks!!"

I tend to be the kind of Christian that first looks to His words on a given subject....rather than take what some over-fluffed preacher with a jaded seminary education tells me what I should do, think, or believe.

Call me a rebel....but oh well....

I do not think anyone said we should act as preachers up in the hospital and tell patients all about their sins. Now if the patient feels comfortable talking about it, it would be fine, but no, it wouldn't be a good idea to just go all out like that as a nurse. You are blowing what people say about sharing the gospel way out of proportion. Jesus simply told us to go and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. That's it. If you read the book of Acts in the Holy Bible, you will see where Christians are coming from, whether they are a nurse or not.

[EmmaG, RN]

Hey there Tweety...you must also keep in mind that everyone who claims to be a follower may not be one. There are a lot of hypocrites out there that put on a front to the world. And those so-called Christians are the ones who are leading people astray and having people not know what true Christianity is all about. They'll put all Christians into one category. See, since the destruction of the tower of Babel, the unity of mankind has been broken. Last Sunday, I learned that Christianity has over 22,000 denominations! Isn't that crazy? It's the lack of unity that makes people have problems with some of these people who claim to be Christians. It's really sad.

This brings up another good point.

Just because someone is Christian, does not mean they necessarily share your beliefs.

And who are we to determine who is or isn't a "true" Christian?

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

I don't like the term "so called Christians". I think it's kind of a slam or slur. Who's to judge this? Everyone falls short, isn't that the whole point?