"The Jesus Factor"

[FireStarterRN]

A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

[leslie :-D]

i have had many patients speak to me about religion.i feel that those who will not listen are not good nurses.

chattsy, it is perfectly acceptable when said discussion is initiated by the pt.

no one is disputing that.

if anything, i think this thread has demonstrated that the majority of posters have shown appropriate concern for the pt.

leslie

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Man I went to sleep at page 33 and boy what I missed. Can I Make an observation? We had been talking for 33 pages and had come to a little agreement on how and if to talk about spiitual matters. Then Aspiring writes one post say she would "evangelize" or share her faith if she got the chance. She made clear it was only if she had the opportunity and she wouldn't shove her views down anyones throat but she immediately gets this negative response that she is proselytizing and putting her own needs above those of her pts. I can see why she got upset! I would have felt attacked in her postition. Can I just through something out there for thought? Sometimes non evangelical Christians and non Christians have this knee-jerk negative response to an evangelical mentioning the name of Jesus? I'm not trying to stir up dissention, but there are reasons Christians often feel picked on (please notice I did not SAY and do not MEAN persecuted).

Hi, it's me, OP, and I think it might be because Evangelical Christians are sometimes pushy and also they are most associated with televangelists who get busted for scamming little old ladies, or hanging out with prostitutes, or MegaChurch pastors who rail against homosexuals, who take meth and see male prostitutes. There have been some pretty public scandals that have soured the public on the efficacy of the Evangelical experience.

I fully understand that these public scandals don't represent each Evangelical Christian, I'm just putting this forward as an explanation.

[reesern63, RN]

I respectfully give up on this thread. I am well-educated on what the Bible says and does not say, so I need no further attempts by others to "enlighten" me. And I have far too much respect for my pts. to try to "enlighten" them, either.

The real world of nursing v. the ideal world one lives in as a student or a nurse to be are two different things sometimes. I hope time will temper some of the dogmatism that seems to prevail in some posts and replace it with tolerance and understanding about the importance of meeting the pt's needs first, not those of the church.

[SweetLadyJ]

but there are many pts who wonder aloud, "where am i going when i die?"

this needs to be handled delicately.

i am certain Jesus would not want anyone spreading His name at the risk of making another uncomfortable and helpless.

often these pts will not state their needs or feelings.

it's not as black and white as thinking they will merely speak up.

many are feeling hopeless, apathetic, fearful.

there may be perceived barriers to care if they dare speak their mind.

In a case like this, you are right...it needs to be handled very delicately. As a Christian, I would think it would be wrong to just flat out say "If you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to Hell." As Christians, we must make them feel comfortable and talk to them in way that will not upset the patient. The patient will either be receptive or hostile. The word of God or gospel of Christ will either draw the patient to Christ or shove the patient away even more. The gospel of Christ will either give them hope or make their hearts even harder against the Word. That's just what happens. Even if the Christian is being as polite as possible when sharing the gospel, anything can happen, and that's what we Christians have to keep in mind when we evangelize. We shouldn't evangelize for our glory, we should evangelize for the glory of God.

I have read the Bible through and through several times, attended Bible study for many years.

I personally have nothing against Jesus whatsoever. He's a role model of mine and I wish I was more like Him.

I do have a lot of problems with many of his followers however, and that's what this thread is about, not Jesus.

Hey there Tweety...you must also keep in mind that everyone who claims to be a follower may not be one. There are a lot of hypocrites out there that put on a front to the world. And those so-called Christians are the ones who are leading people astray and having people not know what true Christianity is all about. They'll put all Christians into one category. See, since the destruction of the tower of Babel, the unity of mankind has been broken. Last Sunday, I learned that Christianity has over 22,000 denominations! Isn't that crazy? It's the lack of unity that makes people have problems with some of these people who claim to be Christians. It's really sad.

[JoAnnS]

Her patients are in a vulnerable position and she is taking advantage of the situation to proselytize. Patients are sometimes too uncomfortable or in some way limited to protest. Their significant others may make decisions based on their own beliefs, not the patients. It just isn't right.

This nurse's intentions may be good, but it is still unethical. The yoga and Earth Day comparisons make no sense; she's going to hospice to work with terminally ill patients. It is very clearly not their lives here on earth that she believes conversion to Jesus will impact.

Hello:

So as long as the "patient" is requesting or inquiring about religious pray or religious talk, this is ok with rules & regulations.

I am not a Nurse yet, I start school in Sept. I was always under the impression when people are dying, this is one of the 1st topic's they want to talk about. I know I have a lot to learn and I am getting real good information on this web site. I am really glad I found it.

I can understand the Nurse who wants to "convert" or "make sure those patients go to heaven", she is just doing what she has been taught. I think for some people, it is hard for them to rest at night if they did not preach the bible. This is what they are taught in bible study. They are encouraged to share the word of GOD with other people to save their souls. Someone should take her aside in a nice way and let her know it is not the rules & regulations of the hospital.

Thanks for the information.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Hey there Tweety...you must also keep in mind that everyone who claims to be a follower may not be one. There are a lot of hypocrites out there that put on a front to the world. And those so-called Christians are the ones who are leading people astray and having people not know what true Christianity is all about. They'll put all Christians into one category. See, since the destruction of the tower of Babel, the unity of mankind has been broken. Last Sunday, I learned that Christianity has over 22,000 denominations! Isn't that crazy? It's the lack of unity that makes people have problems with some of these people who claim to be Christians. It's really sad.

Hey, that's because everyone rebelled against the One True Church!!!!!!

[SweetLadyJ]

Hey, that's because everyone rebelled against the One True Church!!!!!!

Yep, there's so much division and rebellion among Christians in this world today.

[mercykitten]

"Mr. Jones, I have been meaning to talk to you about your cholesterol levels. You need to take a pill to lower those levels as well as change your diet. No more salt or fatty foods for you." said Nurse Smith.

"Nurse, I do not wish to discuss this." replied Mr. Jones.

"You may wish to avoid this conversation about your cholesterol, but it doesn't change the facts. Your life depends on addressing these problems," Nurse Smith responded.

"But," replies Mr. Jones, "this is a private matter and has nothing to do with you. How inappropriate of you to bring up these issues, Nurse."

Half an hour later in the nurses station, Dr. Hart is discussing Mr. Jones with Nurse Smith as the charge nurse approaches.

"If we don't get Mr. Jones to address these health issues including his cholestrol and his diet, those stents we just put in are going to clog. He'll end up needing open heart and that doesn't really solve his problems. Nurse, we have to get him on board with this." Dr. Hart leaves the station.

"Jane," says the charge nurse to Nurse Smith. "I am afraid that you have offended Mr. Smith. He said that you brought up issues he does not wish to discuss. He wants you reprimanded for inflicting your views upon him. Maybe it would be better if you don't discuss these matters with him."

It isn't about religion. It is about a personal relationship with Jesus. It is okay to bring it up casually to see if the pt wishes to discuss spiritual issues. It is most frequently at night that patients wish to discuss this. As someone who has faced a potentially fatal disease, the afterlife is on your mind a great deal. We have to respect boundaries, not force the topic on someone, but asking us not to say anything at all is like asking Nurse Smith to take no action to save Mr. Jones.

[fronkey bean]

Hi, it's me, OP, and I think it might be because Evangelical Christians are sometimes pushy and also they are most associated with televangelists who get busted for scamming little old ladies, or hanging out with prostitutes, or MegaChurch pastors who rail against homosexuals, who take meth and see male prostitutes. There have been some pretty public scandals that have soured the public on the efficacy of the Evangelical experience.

I fully understand that these public scandals don't represent each Evangelical Christian, I'm just putting this forward as an explanation.

If you read my earlier post I stated that the Evangelical movement is a large movement encompassing many different denominations and view points. So saying some evangelicals are pushy is like saying some singers have bad lyrics. You talk about pushy Christians but we don't have the monopoly on pushy, obnoxious members. I have been attacked for my faith while mindidng my own business.

Also, it is non

christians who associate televangelists w/ the evangelical movement. May I recommend the book "The Agony of Deceit" by Michael Horton if you want a critique of tv preachers by an evangelical. And of the tens of thousands of pastors of evangelical congregations, both large and small, only a handful have been found lacking in their personal morality. Christians are people as prone to sin as anyone -it's Jesus that saves them, not their good works.

I'm glad that you don't judge all evangelicals by the examples you gave but it just seems those examples get mentioned when they are not representative of the evangelical movement.

I don't judge all non-Christians by the ones that have told me I am a fool and spent great energy trying to "make me see the light". I don't think all non-Christians are pushy or even most. there are always some pushy people in any group and there are people as passioate about the belief that there is no God as there are about the belief that there is a God.

[cannulator]

Skrawberri-

"although God says we are all destined for hell without Jesus".....

could you please cite the exact Bible location of this quote? Thanks...

[CRNI-ICU20]

aspiringblacknurse [yep, there's so much division and rebellion among christians in this world today.]

aren't we, the united states of america, currently engaged in a war with a group of muslims that are behaving exactly as what you just said about christians?? (just thought i would throw that out there that division isn't unique to any one group of people in the world...not since cain an abel.)

my point is: it doesn't have a dang thing to do with bein' a christian, or muslim, or any other "ism".....it has to do with being a solid, caring, competent nurse.....we weren't hired based on our religious beliefs....(otherwise, there would be a whole lot of employers out there that would have their collective fannies in a sling!)we were hired based on our educational background and skill sets.

i know many of you are saying that because you are christians you "should witness" or "should preach the gospel".....and i am saying that you should read that whole passage in it's context and tone again....

jesus didn't say, "uh, kids...it's time to go out and grill people on their death beds, and tell them all about their sins, and let them know they are going straight to h-e-double-toothpicks!!"

i tend to be the kind of christian that first looks to his words on a given subject....rather than take what some over-fluffed preacher with a jaded seminary education tells me what i should do, think, or believe.

call me a rebel....but oh well....

the only one responsible for my actions at the end of the day is me....not the preacher....not jesus, and certainly not someone else in the herd who thinks that having the "jesus factor all squared away" is a sure fire way to "win a soul"....

when one sets themselves to the forefront as a "leader" in spiritual matters, particularly christian, one must be soberingly aware of the huge responsibility they carry when shepherding others.....

i believe st. paul was very explicit in his letter to titus, (the first bishop of the christian church, island of crete):

if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly. 7 for the 4bishop must be blameless, as god's steward; not selfwilled, not soon angry, 5no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; 8 but given to hospitality, a lover of good, soberminded, just, holy, temperate; 9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in the 6sound 7doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers.

it sounds to me like st. paul gave some very sound advice....do ya think he might have a little problem with an overzealous underdeveloped nurse/soul saver taking her "jesus factor" with her to work everyday???

there is precise teaching and standard in god's word. the person that st. paul describes is blameless, not selfwilled, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre. (filthy lucre is a king james era way of saying someone who doesn't accept bribes.)

the "jesus factor" nurse wouldn't have made past the first two criteria....

also, st. paul talks about how christians ought to behave as bishops and ministers of the gospel, which includes women, and their behaviour....first timothy, chapter 3....

mark chapter 16: and he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

in the context of this scripture, yeshua has been crucified, entombed, and this was his commandment after he appeared first to mary magdalene, martha, and then the remaining 11 disciples.(judas did himself in after he betrayed christ....guess we all know what a bad decision that was!) in the preceeding scripture, yeshua lays both groundwork and the tools with which these 11 disciples would carry out this commandment. this commandment applies to a seasoned individual....one who is steeped in the word of god and the mysteries of his life; he didn't give this commandment to any tom, dick or harry.....he gave it to his disciples....the ones who suffered with him at gethsemane, at golgotha, and who had to worship in secret thereafter for fear of being put to death by the sanheddrin as well. that is not to say that young, newborn christians cannot share their faith....butthere are some things to consider before trotting down a road to unknown territory....

the parable of the sower speaks of how his word is received into three scenarios....luke chapter 8: the bottom line being that if you don't don't know him, or his word, you are not only a poor farmer, but you won't reap a generous crop....

if you know his word in your own soul, there is no room for "jesus factor" antics....truly.

i love this picture....i wanted to post it here....

again, people are more receptive to our actions than our words....yeshua knew this well; precisely why he healed physically before speaking spiritually....this is our example.

[kcalohagirl]

It isn't about religion. It is about a personal relationship with Jesus. It is okay to bring it up casually to see if the pt wishes to discuss spiritual issues. It is most frequently at night that patients wish to discuss this. As someone who has faced a potentially fatal disease, the afterlife is on your mind a great deal. We have to respect boundaries, not force the topic on someone, but asking us not to say anything at all is like asking Nurse Smith to take no action to save Mr. Jones.

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with you about this. I am not Christian. Therefore, I do not have, nor do I particularly want to have a relationship with Jesus. For the nurse who is taking care of me to bring up that subject with me without my express consent would offend me. When I am at home, I can refuse to allow someone through my front door. Lying in bed in a hospital, I do not have that option.

I am glad that you have faith. Faith is a wonderful thing. However faith comes in many different varieties.

Just because a person chooses to take a different path in their relationship with their deity does not necessarily mean that it is the wrong path (or deity) for them.

Peace.