SORRY - i have to rant about this. I don't want to start a fight- and I'm not going to generalize about all BSN or ADN programs. They have to be evaluated individually on their own merits but....... The constant arguement over ADN vs BSN is driving me crazy!!!! People act like I've really got a choice- like I can just walk out and "get" either one. ya right.
I am a 36yo pre-nursing student at a CC (in greater OKC metro). I have a previous BS in a science. I still have pre-reqs to do and support course to finish just to be competitive. & believe me- competition is HIGH- even for the lowly ADN Last semester there were 300 applicants for 50 spots. I have loved all my instructors, been impressed with the level of instruction, and feel prepared.
I have never seen an ad for a job that said "ADN need not apply"- all they ask for is the RN current license- yes, I understand that the BSN may be needed to go into higher mangement etc.
NOW, why I'm not doing the BSN. Here in OKC we have a few BSN programs at state & private universities, and even a few BS to BSN accelerated. The tuition ranges from $20,000 to over $50,000. Having loans from a previous degree & a husband that makes a good salary- I don't qualify for financial aid. SO....if anyone expects me to get that degree- hand over the $$$$$$, please. Also, the BSN programs don't accept many students- the smaller universities have only 20-50/ year and the larger major university accepts around 120/year. &That particular program had over 700 applicants last year!!!! YA I can just walk in and "get" my BSN- hahahahah
BTW- compare NCLEX pass rates
major university- 83% my CC - 87%
university#2 - 57% cc#2 - 87%
university #3 - 50% cc#3 - 82%
now, tell me- would I really want to go to a program that only 50% passed?? what good is a BSN if I can't pass boards? I realize there are many factors to it, but come on....50%!
Let me give you an eye opening fact---if OKC (local metro areas) went to "all BSN" this year and did away with ADN--they would lose 248 new nurses! (that's how many passed boards from 3 major ccs last year) WOW- you think we're short on nurses now- try cutting out all those new grads.
I'm just frustrated with the whole discussion. Like I've said, people act like all of us have EVERY option available, or that we can afford it, or that these programs are just waiting for me to come and "get" my degree.
At least around here- all the ADN/ASD are very professional, highly technical, and very competitive. There are no "waiting lists". You have to apply every semester, meet basic requirements, then compete with GPA, preference points, etc. NONE of them simply put you on a list for meeting the requirements.
It may be different in your neck of the woods, but that how it sits here.
Everyone has to make their own choice, evaluate their own needs and the programs available. I'm done- I feel better - thanks for listening:rolleyes:
I totally agree. We are the only profession that has so many entry levels. Why is that? I feel that every other person in the health care setting needs at least a BS, why should the nurse be any different? But, I also understand that with the nursing shortage how can a BSN only status be implemented? I also feel that why should the ADN go on and get a BSN... the pay is relatively the same, there is no incentive. I will be graduating w/ my BSN in August, but I will complete my program in one year. If I didn't find an accelerated program, I would of went to my local community college and gotten my ADN, since I already have a BS in another field. However, I am glad that I am getting my BSN because I do feel the more education you have, the better! And eventually I want to go on and maybe get my NP, I just want to work first and pay off some schools loans and get experience.
me too! I am looking into some loan forgiveness programs...I really love school...if it wasnt sooo expensive I would always take classes;)
Nursing is one of the few 'professions' that has three entry way levels of education. OTs, PTs, STs all require a miminmum of a BA or BS. And a PT requires an Masters for entry level. We have been having this debate since the 50s. And it is unlikely to ever change. Why, because of the proliferation of associate degree programs (they far out number BSN programs); the growing shortage of nurse educators; the growing graying of nurse educators; the growing need for nurses. And I did not start out in a BSN program but a diploma one, graduating from an associate degree program and getting my BSN two years after graduating. And I did it without the assistance of my employer.
Until one settle on one entry level, no one will respect us as a profession. And I cannot honestly blame them.
Grannynurse :balloons:
I respect all nurses, because either route you go..the training is intense. Some of the best nurses I have worked with as a nurse assistant were out of the old way, the diploma schools. They don't have those around here now, but I thought that was the best way. You learned right on the floor instead of out of a book. Toledo used to have one but they recently went ADN also.
Your right about ADN schools far out numbering the BSN schools. Here in Metro Detroit there are several CC's. Most have long waiting lists though. So in the long run here in Detroit, it's really not that much longer to go to get the BSN. I had started school many years ago and don't remember so many people wanting to become a nurse. Now the schools are flooded with applicants. Most are younger than me, but it seems there is a great deal of people wanting in the nursing profession. I had to tell you though that the older RN's I worked with were awesome nurses. They mostly went through the Diploma programs.
Until one settle on one entry level, no one will respect us as a profession. And I cannot honestly blame them.
I see nothing wrong with making ADN the ONE entry way into nursing. :chuckle
It is, after all, the most common route into nursing and the route with the greatest success rate at NCLEX - so it obviously prepares nurses better than any other route.
I see nothing wrong with making ADN the ONE entry way into nursing. :chuckle
It is, after all, the most common route into nursing and the route with the greatest success rate at NCLEX - so it obviously prepares nurses better than any other route.
I have currently made the decision between ADN vs. BSN being that I finish my prerqs at the end of next month (5 weeks of A&P II and Im done!!! :balloons: ). I decided to go for the ADN. As others have said no matter which degree you have, for an entry level RN position you will basically get paid the same. The BSN, as was said already, is good for mamagement positions. I do plan to get my future employer to pay for my RN-BSN program that I plan on pursuing after my ADN, just in case I need to go into management or teaching in the far future. Im only 20 and I know that things happen so I wanna prepare myself and have something to "fall back on".
I received my ADN 8 years ago. 3 years ago I returned to school to obtain my BSN and recently graduated this past May. I did so because I realized bedside nursing was not for me and decided working in the community setting was where I wanted to continue my career. A BSN would open up many doors in nursing outside of the hospital walls. A BSN is necessary for other areas of nursing besides management.
Continuing my education even further is not out of the question....but I agree with many of you, someone else is going to have to pay for it. :)
I see nothing wrong with making ADN the ONE entry way into nursing. :chuckle
It is, after all, the most common route into nursing and the route with the greatest success rate at NCLEX - so it obviously prepares nurses better than any other route.
Right? Right.
~faith,
Timothy.
The ADN program does not prepare student nurses better than the BSN level. How can you say having less education would be more beneficial than having more? Every other major in college is a BS or BA. Plain and simple. Why is nursing different? And why do nurses always want someone else to pay for them to go to college? Take out loans, get financial aid, just do it. School loans actually increase your credit rating and the interest rate is so low on them. Times are changing whethere you like it or not. Diploma programs are being phased out, the public wants to be taught in a university. They don't want nursing to be a technical program, they want it to be a profession and you learn a profession in college at universities. You need to have the knowledge base.... you need to have patho I & II, pharm, research classes, leadership classes. Also, my university has a 99% pass rate on NCLEX exams.
The ADN program does not prepare student nurses better than the BSN level. How can you say having less education would be more beneficial than having more? Every other major in college is a BS or BA. Plain and simple. Why is nursing different? And why do nurses always want someone else to pay for them to go to college? Take out loans, get financial aid, just do it. School loans actually increase your credit rating and the interest rate is so low on them. Times are changing whethere you like it or not. Diploma programs are being phased out, the public wants to be taught in a university. They don't want nursing to be a technical program, they want it to be a profession and you learn a profession in college at universities. You need to have the knowledge base.... you need to have patho I & II, pharm, research classes, leadership classes. Also, my university has a 99% pass rate on NCLEX exams.
Spoken like a true BSN student. You've learned your concepts well. :rotfl:
I don't feel entitled just because I'm a nurse to have someone pay for my education. But hey, the it's out there, and I'm not taking out loans to increase my credit rating when my employer is handing out $2200/yr to go to school. (I paid for my ADN in cash by working full time. I'm working full time now but the ADN to RN program is 100 times (literally) more expensive and I'm not going to turn down any help my employer offers).
However, I would not choose to pass on the BSN route if I had a choice. I would suck it up and go and find a way to pay for it get it out of the way. Rather than get an ADN for the sole purpose of getting an employer to later pay for it. But as was mentioned by many people above (myself included), the BSN is not an option for everyone at every point in time at every location in the USA. :)
Also "they", meaning the general public, are blissfully unaware of our debate. The patients I take care of seem quite content knowing they have a caring and competent nurse who meets their needs and don't ask, demand or expect that a BSN is better than an RN. Most of them don't know the difference. Just my opinion, of course I respect that yours is different.
It's great that you are in a good program. And that you have loans available. BTW I paid for my first degree as well- with hard work all during college and a lot of loans. For some of us who are second career students, loans are no longer available to us. I cannot receive undergraduate loans-period.
Most ADN programs are not "technical". The abbrev. stands for Associate Degree of Nursing / mine actually will be Associate in Applied Sciences. And with it and my first BS- I can move on to the MSN, NP, or CNS. My program is at a Community College not a technical school, or vocational school, these are different. I will have pharm, physio-path, leadership, and research, as well as many other. Please do not assume anything about individual programs. BTW--WE are not talking about "diploma" programs- these were hospital based training programs, more "hands on", on the job training. Yes these are being phased out.
As long as the professional designation remains the same- RN- we are all registered nurses. Even though I believe those had their place too.
This is my point of the OP- RN means RN, we all take the same boards. All programs are evaluated and accredited. One has to choose the best path for themselves.
The ADN program does not prepare student nurses better than the BSN level. How can you say having less education would be more beneficial than having more? Every other major in college is a BS or BA. Plain and simple. Why is nursing different? And why do nurses always want someone else to pay for them to go to college? Take out loans, get financial aid, just do it. School loans actually increase your credit rating and the interest rate is so low on them. Times are changing whethere you like it or not. Diploma programs are being phased out, the public wants to be taught in a university. They don't want nursing to be a technical program, they want it to be a profession and you learn a profession in college at universities. You need to have the knowledge base.... you need to have patho I & II, pharm, research classes, leadership classes. Also, my university has a 99% pass rate on NCLEX exams.
So, in other words, someone like me, who is 37, with three kids should give up on the idea of being a nurse?
There is one program that is possible for me to complete here in my area. It is an ADN program. I have waited a year and a half to get in after completing all of my pre- and co-requisites. I currently have a 3.76 overall and a 3.93 in the classes needed for my ADN. I begin in August, and I'll pay approximately $1000 per semester for full time enrollment. There are 2 public universities that offer BSN's at a reasonable price, each being about 30 miles away in HEAVY traffic. There are also 2 private universities that are closer that offer BSN's. However, I figured out that it would cost approximately $30,000 and $40,000 for me to finish a BSN at these schools. My CC is very well thought of in the area. I tried to look up NCLEX pass rates for all of these schools, but I don't have the time right now.
I am not doing this because I wanted to make more money, I was making a good living before. I'm not doing it because it is the shortest route...obviously it is going to take me almost as long to get my ADN because of the wait. I would love to get my BSN now, but I can't afford it. And, as much as everyone who is not in my position thinks I can just "bite the bullet" and take out (unnecessarily) gigantic loans to complete a BSN, for me it is not an option. The idea that I should in order to help my credit is laughable. I won't put my family in that kind of debt if I don't need to.
The idea of this thread was not to argue that one is better than the other, just that the argument is not valid for some of us, for whom an ADN is the only choice (just like for some, the only accessible program is a BSN.) And, as far as my future employer paying for a BSN, why shouldn't they? If your employer offered to pay off your student loans for your BSN, wouldn't you accept?
good to hear from everyone- glad I didn't start something ugly :)
I know some are opposed to loans- believe me I wish had been a little more careful the first time around cuz hubby and I still owe a bunch- he has a MS though so it's worth it. I think done responsibly, loans are worth it.
Just a note- some of the hospitals here offer grants for the BSN..BUT you have to be able to work at least 30 hours/ week for them while in school and then sign a 2 or 3 year contract after graduating. I wouldn't mind the job contract but having 2 little kiddos and other obligations, I can't put in that many work hours and full time school. That's another reason I'm at the CC. After these support courses are done...the nursing classes will be part-time. I'm hoping to get in for fall 06.
good luck everyone!
hang in there okie..I started out at a cc and would gladly have finished there if it hadnt been for the vocational rehab for veterans affairs requiring me to get a BSN. They refused to pay for an ADN because of my disabilities. I had to get a degree that would allow me to continue to a MSN. I haven't made my mind up but I'm looking into research nursing...but besides all that...I hear it all the time about ADN..BSN and in the town where I go to school it is a huge thing. One of which I am personnally offended by because most of my friends are in ADN programs. From a personal standpoint if I had to pay for it myself I would have stayed with ADN. I find the BSN route more challenging because of all the extra bookwork on top of the clinicals.
So, in other words, someone like me, who is 37, with three kids should give up on the idea of being a nurse?
There is one program that is possible for me to complete here in my area. It is an ADN program. I have waited a year and a half to get in after completing all of my pre- and co-requisites. I currently have a 3.76 overall and a 3.93 in the classes needed for my ADN. I begin in August, and I'll pay approximately $1000 per semester for full time enrollment. There are 2 public universities that offer BSN's at a reasonable price, each being about 30 miles away in HEAVY traffic. There are also 2 private universities that are closer that offer BSN's. However, I figured out that it would cost approximately $30,000 and $40,000 for me to finish a BSN at these schools. My CC is very well thought of in the area. I tried to look up NCLEX pass rates for all of these schools, but I don't have the time right now.
I am not doing this because I wanted to make more money, I was making a good living before. I'm not doing it because it is the shortest route...obviously it is going to take me almost as long to get my ADN because of the wait. I would love to get my BSN now, but I can't afford it. And, as much as everyone who is not in my position thinks I can just "bite the bullet" and take out (unnecessarily) gigantic loans to complete a BSN, for me it is not an option. The idea that I should in order to help my credit is laughable. I won't put my family in that kind of debt if I don't need to.
The idea of this thread was not to argue that one is better than the other, just that the argument is not valid for some of us, for whom an ADN is the only choice (just like for some, the only accessible program is a BSN.) And, as far as my future employer paying for a BSN, why shouldn't they? If your employer offered to pay off your student loans for your BSN, wouldn't you accept?
Richele
I am not saying to take out loans to help your credit. That's ridiculous. What I am saying is that it doesn't hinder your credit rating. And still nobody answers the question as to why does every other major need at least a BS, BA why should nursing be any different? People go back to college all the time. This is my second BS degree. If we want to be looked at as a profession, then it should be BSN only. I'm not saying to get rid of all the ADN programs out there, b/c that's not possible d/t the fact that they supply the majority of nursing students. I feel that there should be at least an attempt to move nursing to BSN while still encorporating the ADN students. And yes, I do think the BSN is better b/c it involves more learning and how can more knowledge hinder someone in their desired profession.
SORRY - i have to rant about this. I don't want to start a fight- and I'm not going to generalize about all BSN or ADN programs. They have to be evaluated individually on their own merits but....... The constant arguement over ADN vs BSN is driving me crazy!!!! People act like I've really got a choice- like I can just walk out and "get" either one. ya right.
I am a 36yo pre-nursing student at a CC (in greater OKC metro). I have a previous BS in a science. I still have pre-reqs to do and support course to finish just to be competitive. & believe me- competition is HIGH- even for the lowly ADN Last semester there were 300 applicants for 50 spots. I have loved all my instructors, been impressed with the level of instruction, and feel prepared.
I have never seen an ad for a job that said "ADN need not apply"- all they ask for is the RN current license- yes, I understand that the BSN may be needed to go into higher mangement etc.
NOW, why I'm not doing the BSN. Here in OKC we have a few BSN programs at state & private universities, and even a few BS to BSN accelerated. The tuition ranges from $20,000 to over $50,000. Having loans from a previous degree & a husband that makes a good salary- I don't qualify for financial aid. SO....if anyone expects me to get that degree- hand over the $$$$$$, please. Also, the BSN programs don't accept many students- the smaller universities have only 20-50/ year and the larger major university accepts around 120/year. &That particular program had over 700 applicants last year!!!! YA I can just walk in and "get" my BSN- hahahahah
BTW- compare NCLEX pass rates
major university- 83% my CC - 87%
university#2 - 57% cc#2 - 87%
university #3 - 50% cc#3 - 82%
now, tell me- would I really want to go to a program that only 50% passed?? what good is a BSN if I can't pass boards? I realize there are many factors to it, but come on....50%!
Let me give you an eye opening fact---if OKC (local metro areas) went to "all BSN" this year and did away with ADN--they would lose 248 new nurses! (that's how many passed boards from 3 major ccs last year) WOW- you think we're short on nurses now- try cutting out all those new grads.
I'm just frustrated with the whole discussion. Like I've said, people act like all of us have EVERY option available, or that we can afford it, or that these programs are just waiting for me to come and "get" my degree.
At least around here- all the ADN/ASD are very professional, highly technical, and very competitive. There are no "waiting lists". You have to apply every semester, meet basic requirements, then compete with GPA, preference points, etc. NONE of them simply put you on a list for meeting the requirements.
It may be different in your neck of the woods, but that how it sits here.
Everyone has to make their own choice, evaluate their own needs and the programs available. I'm done- I feel better - thanks for listening:rolleyes:
I know what you mean. As a single Mom and an LPN I had to make a choice. ASN or BSN. After talking to a large number of Docs that I worked with, and learning that they all said the same thing: "I'd rather a two year nurse take care of my patients because they have more training at the bedside" well, I don't have to tell you what degree I went after. After all, I went in to the field to take care of the sick, not the bank account. Even so, I have found myself as a house supervisor, ICU and ED charge nurse, ICU manager, and as a top health administrator of a large facility. The big bucks came I believe due to the abillity to formulate rational nursing judgements. I don't think that this is something that either BSN or ADN or ASN teaches us. I think it comes from an innate ability to believe in ourselves. With all that said, best of luck to you and don't stop believing in you, because that's where the true learning begins.
Last semester there were 300 applicants for 50 spots. I have loved all my instructors, been impressed with the level of instruction, and feel prepared.
GrnHonu99, RN
1,459 Posts
me too! I am looking into some loan forgiveness programs...I really love school...if it wasnt sooo expensive I would always take classes;)