SORRY - i have to rant about this. I don't want to start a fight- and I'm not going to generalize about all BSN or ADN programs. They have to be evaluated individually on their own merits but....... The constant arguement over ADN vs BSN is driving me crazy!!!! People act like I've really got a choice- like I can just walk out and "get" either one. ya right.
I am a 36yo pre-nursing student at a CC (in greater OKC metro). I have a previous BS in a science. I still have pre-reqs to do and support course to finish just to be competitive. & believe me- competition is HIGH- even for the lowly ADN Last semester there were 300 applicants for 50 spots. I have loved all my instructors, been impressed with the level of instruction, and feel prepared.
I have never seen an ad for a job that said "ADN need not apply"- all they ask for is the RN current license- yes, I understand that the BSN may be needed to go into higher mangement etc.
NOW, why I'm not doing the BSN. Here in OKC we have a few BSN programs at state & private universities, and even a few BS to BSN accelerated. The tuition ranges from $20,000 to over $50,000. Having loans from a previous degree & a husband that makes a good salary- I don't qualify for financial aid. SO....if anyone expects me to get that degree- hand over the $$$$$$, please. Also, the BSN programs don't accept many students- the smaller universities have only 20-50/ year and the larger major university accepts around 120/year. &That particular program had over 700 applicants last year!!!! YA I can just walk in and "get" my BSN- hahahahah
BTW- compare NCLEX pass rates
major university- 83% my CC - 87%
university#2 - 57% cc#2 - 87%
university #3 - 50% cc#3 - 82%
now, tell me- would I really want to go to a program that only 50% passed?? what good is a BSN if I can't pass boards? I realize there are many factors to it, but come on....50%!
Let me give you an eye opening fact---if OKC (local metro areas) went to "all BSN" this year and did away with ADN--they would lose 248 new nurses! (that's how many passed boards from 3 major ccs last year) WOW- you think we're short on nurses now- try cutting out all those new grads.
I'm just frustrated with the whole discussion. Like I've said, people act like all of us have EVERY option available, or that we can afford it, or that these programs are just waiting for me to come and "get" my degree.
At least around here- all the ADN/ASD are very professional, highly technical, and very competitive. There are no "waiting lists". You have to apply every semester, meet basic requirements, then compete with GPA, preference points, etc. NONE of them simply put you on a list for meeting the requirements.
It may be different in your neck of the woods, but that how it sits here.
Everyone has to make their own choice, evaluate their own needs and the programs available. I'm done- I feel better - thanks for listening:rolleyes:
One question, though--for those who are saying that getting your BSN is too expensive, is it mostly because you don't want to take out loans (as opposed to not being able to get together the money via loans)?
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If you are going to earn the same pay either way, why bother to go the extra and get the BSN?? Personally, I am going to have to do the BSN route because the comm college here has a waiting list that is years long. They don't require good GPA (which I do have)... it's first come first serve regardless of grades as long as pre-req's are met. So, more people gravitate to that given it is less time and effort for the same pay. I have never heard of any other field where techs get as much pay as someone with a 4 year degree in the same field, and it should not be that way in nursing either.
For ADNs who claim they do all the same courses... you simply don't. The four year degree programs require stats, A&P 202, Nutrition, more Psychology, Microbiology and several other courses not require in a 2 year degree. So please don't keep saying you should get the same pay for less investment!
Techs do not make the same as RNs (please tell me you aren't calling ADN RNs "techs")
The cost of the education aside. Many people get the BSN simply to save time. They can get their BSN in four years. And in my cases, as Caroleladybelle pointed out, it takes people almost 4 years to get an ADN degree.
Also as was pointed out ADN programs have to take most of those courses you listed, but for perhaps Nutrition (which a lot of BSN programs don't require either). Those are basic courses required of every program ADN, Diploma and BSN.
The differences in courses vary depending on where you go, but include Research, Community Health, Leadership/Management, Pathopysiology, Assessment, Medical Ethics, Transcultural Nursing. Things like that.
But you're correct, the difference between and ADN and a BSN isn't just "a few courses".
Everyone has their own path, that suits them best.
I don't know what ADN program that you are referencing, but MY program required all of those AND MORE.
And please referencing an ADN degree as a 'Two year" degree, when it is not. Most Bachelor's programs require 120 or so semester hours. A standard AA degree (a two year degree) consists of approximately 60-64 semester hours. My ADN program required 100 semester hours - which comes out to over three years by any reasonable calculation. And I know of no ADNs in my home area (4 different Associate's programs) that required less than 91 semester hours.
As one had to require also basic ed BEFORE starting the nursing program, there was no way to even try to double up and finish in less than two years.
It might be nice if you educated yourself about what ADN programs consist of.
People should get paid what they are worth. If you use your higher education to teach and mentor your patients and staff, then you will get paid more. If on the other hand, you get that education and coast with it, you aren't worth much.
I, with my ADN, teach and mentor nurses, educate patients and put in extra time and energy...the BSNs that work with me sometimes do not. Therefore, I frequently get better pay, preferred asignments.
I've heard you talk about your program before. Frankly I'm a bit dismayed at the current trend of granting associate degrees with all that work. Associate Degrees are supposed to be two year degrees that transfer to a four year institution.
I'm not saying you feel this way, but ADNs are getting ripped off by all the requirements and being awarded associate degrees 20 hours shy of some BSN programs.
Actually, there is one hospital group in my area (Kaiser) that does pay $2 extra an hour for BSN's. Although they're the only ones I know of that does.
But, at least from a financial perspective, it still doesn't make any sense to go the BSN route first even with the extra pay.
That extra $2 an hour amounts to a little under $4K a year in extra base salary. But you still have to go to school an 1-2 more years to get your BSN. Where I live in California ... that means losing $100-$200K in extra income over the next two years plus the extra $10K (at least) in direct BSN program costs.
Why lose up to $100-200K in income just to make an extra $4-8K for over the next two years? It makes much more financial sense to go with the ADN first and get your BSN afterward.
:typing
As Carolina pointed about above, the time and credit hour committment between ADNs and BSNs is narrowing, as was pointed out there are waiting lists. So if one can start an BSN program and graduate in four years, it they might even beat their fellow ADN students, or complete just a few months early.
But what you say makes sense, if you are only looking at a financial picture, rather than a time frame and the other reasons people choose the BSN route. Some people, especially younger ones might find the cost of an education worth it to get it out of the way. No regrets, but if I was 18 all over again, I'd go for the BSN right away instead of being a 47 year old loser still trying to graduate. LOL All those years of lost opportunity that the BSN could have provided me was a high price to pay.
But, at least from a financial perspective, it still doesn't make any sense to go the BSN route first even with the extra pay.
Remember too that what makes sense for one person doesn't necessarily fit everybody elses situation.
Most of the hospitals here do pay at least a small differential for a BS or BSN, over time it adds up.
I did the ASN to BS route. I wish I had just done the BS right off the bat too. It took me 6 years total to do both the AS and BS by the time I did pre-reqs for both, redid prereqs for the BS because they had changed the requirements and the school I went to for the BS had some additional requirements, and the AS alone took me almost 4 years anyway! In the long run it cost me more money and more time in school to do go the add on route.
Financial reasons is why i knew i would be going for the LPN, then associate's, then onto bachelor's and master's.
Education would have been cheaper to go for the BSN, but, not on minimum wage, so i went to LPN school, which i was (barely) able to pay out of pocket from a minimum wage job(s), but that lead to a way better paying job that i love, and gaining nursing experience to boot. Pursuing the associate's now, because the CC is closer to work and (now) home, plus, a lot of those classes are needed for a bachelor's anyway, so i can take them, in a smaller class setting, in a flexible schedule, and much cheaper in cost.
I might transfer to a university when the time comes, but that's a little ways off. Whether i do or not is my decision, and not for anyone else to plan or dictate.
For ADNs who claim they do all the same courses... you simply don't. The four year degree programs require stats, A&P 202, Nutrition, more Psychology, Microbiology and several other courses not require in a 2 year degree. So please don't keep saying you should get the same pay for less investment!
You must love the diploma program grads then. Mine was a 3-year program and required all of the above courses and more. How many clinical hours do you put in?
I've heard you talk about your program before. Frankly I'm a bit dismayed at the current trend of granting associate degrees with all that work. Associate Degrees are supposed to be two year degrees that transfer to a four year institution.
I'm not saying you feel this way, but ADNs are getting ripped off by all the requirements and being awarded associate degrees 20 hours shy of some BSN programs.
The is nothing unique to Nursing. For quite a while, Bachelor's physical therapy degrees required the educational time equivalent in hours of a five year degree, despite the title "Bachelor's", implying a basic 4 year plan.. Pharmacy degrees have almost always required extra hours, until recent requirements that all be a pharmD.
And frankly what is a bigger ripoff, is that you can, in some areas have done a three year diploma program and may get little to no college credit for it.
I don't bemoan that it required that many hours, I just get tired of people using "two year degree" like it was a regular AA. Much like people that refer to PTs as "just moving people around", not giving credit to them for their deeper skills of knowledge and assessment.
As far as it goes, if I return to my home area in Central Florida, my CC program is now paired with USF and I could get a BSN in 31 semester hours. That would entail getting paid FL wages/dealing with FL MD egos/and dealing with FL heat ...... either my health would suffer (autoimune disease and excess heat do not mix - why my assignments are North except for visiting family in the depthes of Winter) or I would smart off at a twit of an MD/supervisor, with a tiny brain and an ego bigger than Disney. Those make the prospect somewhat undesirable. Though 131 hours is not that much more than 120
However, if I go elsewhere, I lose a lot of my school credits. And once one does stats and chemistry, does one really want to do them again?
Though as a single person, I face that I will need to return, so that when I can no longer lift 350# patients, and have tired of being nice to the egoists, I will have something to stay afloat with.
Last semester there were 300 applicants for 50 spots. I have loved all my instructors, been impressed with the level of instruction, and feel prepared.
Tweety, BSN, RN
36,267 Posts
Techs do not make the same as RNs (please tell me you aren't calling ADN RNs "techs")
The cost of the education aside. Many people get the BSN simply to save time. They can get their BSN in four years. And in my cases, as Caroleladybelle pointed out, it takes people almost 4 years to get an ADN degree.
Also as was pointed out ADN programs have to take most of those courses you listed, but for perhaps Nutrition (which a lot of BSN programs don't require either). Those are basic courses required of every program ADN, Diploma and BSN.
The differences in courses vary depending on where you go, but include Research, Community Health, Leadership/Management, Pathopysiology, Assessment, Medical Ethics, Transcultural Nursing. Things like that.
But you're correct, the difference between and ADN and a BSN isn't just "a few courses".
Everyone has their own path, that suits them best.