School Shootings

Daisy4RN · May 28, 2018

Nurse Blaq, I am only stating my opinion on societal issues that I believe affect the problem being discussed in this thread, please do not put words in my mouth.

Osceteacher, not exactly sure what you point is, but again, please not put words in my mouth or assume to think you know what I watch on TV.

Muno :pls see article below, I think it is interesting...maybe you will too..

hhern, not sure what you mean by Religious right, but most religious people I know donate a lot of money and time to charities and care very much about other people

Did America Have a Christian Founding? | The Heritage Foundation

allnurses Guide · May 28, 2018

As a person who lives is a state with some of the strictest gun laws in the country I'd like to point out that many of your suggestions already exist in California and we still have school shootings.

So let's break it down.

1). Someone below age 18/21 got YOUR gun? You have to surrender every single one of your guns and never can buy them again.

It was only until quite recently after the shootings in Florida that a person under 21 could walk into a sporting goods store and buy a shot gun or a hunting rifle. The current law which will go into effect in most states Jan 1 2019 does not allow anyone under the age of 21 to purchase a firearm for any reason. I might add that many sporting goods stores have already adopted policies to stop selling firearms to those under 21 ahead of the law's implementation. In California a gun not kept properly stored is a misdemeanor or a felony if that gun is used in a crime.

2). As above + someone got killed? You go to jail.

Already the law in California the gun's owner can be charged with manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide and then it's up to a jury to decide. Unless you are trying to do away with our current justice system and declare martial law.

3). You got to register to own a gun, get license, pass exam, pay yearly tax, demonstrate ownership of a working safe programmed by your fingerprint. Just pretty much like you do with your driving license.

Everything you said here is already the law in California except the yearly tax. I know I own guns and have jumped through all the legal hoops to own them.

4). No one in household of a person with known history of certain felonies (like aggravated assault) and mental health disorders (known anger outbursts within last 5 years with h/o harm to others or involuntary confinement) can store a gun. If they still want to shoot, they can own one but must belong to some sort of organization like hunting club and store it there.

Laws already exist is most states that forbid any person who has been convicted of a felony from owning a gun. We don't need a new law here just enforcement of the existing one. I don't know about other states but in California if you are placed in a mental hospital for danger to self or others (72 hour hold) you lose your right to own a gun for five years. If that hold is extended to a 14 or 30 day hold that restriction becomes lifetime.

Also I hunt and shoot for recreation and am a lifetime member of the NRA so I guess I do belong to a hunting organization. But I hunt with small family groups not a bunch of drunken yahoo's intent on tearing up the forest with semiautomatic weapons.

5). Only organized sales with centralized background check. No more gun shows.V

I agree with you here as I feel the background checks are very important. However gun shows are a lot of fun. You can see all kinds from really old antiques to the newest technology. Under proposed legislation a person can purchase a gun at a gun show and pick it up from a licensed gun dealer after the mandatory waiting period.

6). PMHNP/Pediatrics in EVERY school. Double the number of high school counselors, force them to have at least 6 months education specifically in children's mental health issues..

Counselors and mental health professionals in schools are useless. I have worked for 17 years with acutely mentally ill youth and can tell you that the schools do nothing about bullying, and parents will fight the mental health system tooth and nail to keep their little darling from being labeled as mentally ill. They refuse to take them to counseling or to consider medication. In my view any adolescent hospitalized more than two times in a 5 year period should be required to go to a 30 day inpatient treatment program. In a perfect world Insurance would pay for that and often does if there are past treatment failures at a lower lever. Also parents with jobs should be required to purchase health insurance for their kids. Many do not and have their kids enrolled in Medicaid. Medicaid should be for the poor only. I know families where both parents work, drive new cars and take really nice vacations but state they can't afford health insurance for their children.

7). No military- grade guns for public (or whatever the stuff is named). The existing ones are bought out by State within 10 years. Having them after that = felony, with all the sequela.

I actually completely agree with you on this one.

8). "Want to help America? Stop a bully, whenever you see one! Back to manners, USA!"(yup, including reporting to police that guy on Facebook who just said that Hitler was the greatest man ever and all immigrants are pigs).

Impossible task - bullies exists every where and they learn it from their parents. The united Kingdom is currently considering a law to shut down all Social Media traffic for all but two hours a day. If your kid is a bully and I guarantee you'd know if he/she was you should do something about it. The government cannot step into your home and discipline your child for you. If you child somehow got a gun or other weapon and you don't know he/she has it shame on you. My son is a great kid but he understands we (his parents) own the air he breathes in our home. His room can be searched at any time and he can be drug tested at anytime. We also have the password to his phone.

9). Make mental health, and especially holistic mental health management, a priority over heart disease in management and prevention. Force employers to provide FMLA for that and insurers pay for medical stress management, gyms and community health activities.

I suppose this would work if you lived in one of those countries that took 60% of your income in taxes and it might be worth it. But emphasis should be placed on whole body/mind health not any one aspect. Everyone can practice stress management at home: It's called walking, owning a pet, actually talking to each other your boss should not have to pay for you to go to a gym. I ride my bike to work every day FMLA already covers time off for a sick child regardless of weather that illness is mental or physical.

10). EVERY school district gets a community center for teens, led by teens (ours has one, and it does splendid job. "Girls only/boys only" nights, pool parties, shopping crazies, tutoring, games, summer camps, book clubs. But we're in district which doesn't know how else to spend money it gets).

I really like this idea but don't see it as practical as the bullies which are nothing but predators will go there to seek out new victims. If such places exist they should offer martial arts training for free to any child who wants it. Martial arts, teaches mental balance, self control and how to defend ones self. It is the best thing I ever did for my child.

Sounds like something that makes sense?

Finally I am cosntantly amazed when I see a child in acute distress who has cuts all over his/her body to find thatthe parents are clueless. Parents are there to guide their children. Children are not just some fashion acceccory or a way for a father to relive his glory days on the football field. They are people. If you are a parent be a parent. If you are seperated or divorced learn to co-parent effectively. Be willing to put as much effeort into your children as you do into your own happiness. That is how we are going to correct this problem.

Hppy

allnurses Guide · May 28, 2018

As a person who lives is a state with some of the strictest gun laws in the country I'd like to point out that many of your suggestions already exist in California and we still have school shootings.

So let's break it down.

1). Someone below age 18/21 got YOUR gun? You have to surrender every single one of your guns and never can buy them again.

It was only until quite recently after the shootings in Florida that a person under 21 could walk into a sporting goods store and buy a shot gun or a hunting rifle. The current law which will go into effect in most states Jan 1 2019 does not allow anyone under the age of 21 to purchase a firearm for any reason. I might add that many sporting goods stores have already adopted policies to stop selling firearms to those under 21 ahead of the law's implementation. In California a gun not kept properly stored is a misdemeanor or a felony if that gun is used in a crime.

2). As above + someone got killed? You go to jail.

Already the law in California the gun's owner can be charged with manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide and then it's up to a jury to decide. Unless you are trying to do away with our current justice system and declare martial law.

3). You got to register to own a gun, get license, pass exam, pay yearly tax, demonstrate ownership of a working safe programmed by your fingerprint. Just pretty much like you do with your driving license.

Everything you said here is already the law in California except the yearly tax. and a biometric safe (I like that idea by the way). Our family guns were never locked up in case we had to shoot a varmint that was killing sheep or killing chickens. I know I own guns and have jumped through all the legal hoops to own them.

4). No one in household of a person with known history of certain felonies (like aggravated assault) and mental health disorders (known anger outbursts within last 5 years with h/o harm to others or involuntary confinement) can store a gun. If they still want to shoot, they can own one but must belong to some sort of organization like hunting club and store it there.

Laws already exist is most states that forbid any person who have been convicted of a felony from owning a gun. We don't need a new law here just enforcement of the existing one. I don't know about other states but in California if you are placed in a mental hospital for danger to self or others (72 hour hold) you lose your right to own a gun for five years. If that hold is extended to a 14 or 30 day hold that restriction becomes lifetime.

Also I hunt and shoot for recreation and am a lifetime member of the NRA so I guess I do belong to a hunting organization. But I hunt with small family groups not a bunch of drunken yahoo's intent on tearing up the forest with semiautomatic weapons.

5). Only organized sales with centralized background check. No more gun shows.V
I agree with you here as I feel the background checks are very important. However gun shows are a lot of fun. You can see all kinds from really old antiques to the newest technology. Under proposed legislation a person can purchase a gun at a gun show and pick it up from a licensed gun dealer after the mandatory waiting period.

6). PMHNP/Pediatrics in EVERY school. Double the number of high school counselors, force them to have at least 6 months education specifically in children's mental health issues..

Counselors and mental health professionals in schools are useless. I have worked for 17 years with acutely mentally ill youth and can tell you that the schools do nothing about bullying, and parents will fight the mental health system tooth and nail to keep their little darling from being labeled as mentally ill. They refuse to take them to counseling or to consider medication. In my view any adolescent hospitalized more than two times in a 5 year period should be required to go to a 30 day inpatient treatment program. In a perfect world Insurance would pay for that and often does if there are past treatments failures at a lower level. Also parents with jobs should be required to purchase health insurance for their kids. Many do not and have their kids enrolled in Medicaid. Medicaid should be for the poor only. I know families where both parents work, drive new cars and take really nice vacations but state they can't afford health insurance for their children.
7). No military- grade guns for public (or whatever the stuff is named). The existing ones are bought out by State within 10 years. Having them after that = felony, with all the sequela.

I actually completely agree with you on this one.
8). "Want to help America? Stop a bully, whenever you see one! Back to manners, USA!"(yup, including reporting to police that guy on Facebook who just said that Hitler was the greatest man ever and all immigrants are pigs).

Impossible task - bullies exists every where and they learn it from their parents. The united Kingdom is currently considering a law to shut down all Social Media traffic for all but two hours a day. If your kid is a bully and I guarantee you'd know if he/she was you should do something about it. The government cannot step into your home and discipline your child for you. If you child somehow got a gun or other weapon and you don't know he/she has it shame on you. My son is a great kid but he understands we (his parents) own the air he breathes in our home. His room can be searched at any time and he can be drug tested at anytime. We also have the password to his phone.
9). Make mental health, and especially holistic mental health management, a priority over heart disease in management and prevention. Force employers to provide FMLA for that and insurers pay for medical stress management, gyms and community health activities.

I suppose this would work if you lived in one of those countries that took 60% of your income in taxes and it might be worth it. But emphasis should be placed on whole body/mind health not any one aspect. Everyone can practice stress management at home: It's called walking, owning a pet, actually talking to each other your boss should not have to pay for you to go to a gym. (If you can afford $7-10/day for lunch you can afford a gym membership) I ride my bike to work every day. FMLA already covers time off for a sick child regardless of weather that illness is mental or physical.
10). EVERY school district gets a community center for teens, led by teens (ours has one, and it does splendid job. "Girls only/boys only" nights, pool parties, shopping crazies, tutoring, games, summer camps, book clubs. But we're in district which doesn't know how else to spend money it gets).

I really like this idea but don't see it as practical as the bullies which are nothing but predators will go there to seek out new victims. If such places exist they should offer martial arts training for free to any child who wants it. Martial arts, teaches mental balance, self control and how to defend ones self. It is the best thing I ever did for my child.
Sounds like something that makes sense?
Finally I am cosntantly amazed when I see a child in acute distress who has cuts all over his/her body to find thatthe parents are clueless. Parents are their to guide their children. Childrean are not just some fashion acceccory or a way for a fahter to relive his glory days on the football field. They are people. If you are a parent be a parent. If you are seperated or divorced learn to co-parent effectively. Be willing to put as much effeort into your children as you do into your own happiness. That is how we are going to correct this problem.
Hppy

NurseBlaq · May 28, 2018

Nurse Blaq, I am only stating my opinion on societal issues that I believe affect the problem being discussed in this thread, please do not put words in my mouth.
Osceteacher, not exactly sure what you point is, but again, please not put words in my mouth or assume to think you know what I watch on TV.
Muno :pls see article below, I think it is interesting...maybe you will too..
hhern, not sure what you mean by Religious right, but most religious people I know donate a lot of money and time to charities and care very much about other people
Did America Have a Christian Founding? | The Heritage Foundation

I didn't "put words in your mouth" I addressed your undermining and lack of respect for everyone else's opinion by continuously rebutting everything with Christianity. If you feel like it's words "put in your mouth" by addressing it then you need to adjust your approach and stop peddling religion.

And just as you, everyone else is entitled to an opinion, only without someone else dismissing what they said with a religious spin.

The nerve.....

NurseBlaq · May 28, 2018

In terms of Christianity, there's something some of you need to know:
Separation of church and state is a one way street. Religion can affect the legislation, but church cannot BE legislated.
.

Yet they're doing against other religions, nationalities, races, etc in the name of Christianity. People have stopped going to church because of hypocrisy in the church. The folks preaching don't live their own words but expect it from the congregation. Add in sexual abuse, adultery, etc by religious leaders across the spectrum. Every religion has been experiencing scandal after scandal. But let's pretend Christianity is exempted?

I can't with y'all religious folks.

I'm officially done with this thread.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · May 28, 2018

Y'all need to stop with the "put prayer back in school" rhetoric. It was never about prayer, or video games, or music, or TV, etc. It's about how a child is raised by the people in their lives. Religion has no place in school and it's not the end all be all fix. You have so-called religious leaders upholding and cosigning bigotry daily. Many are doing inappropriate things like drugs, rape, abuse, cheating on their spouse, etc on a regular basis. The same things they speak against in church they're doing outside of church. There are many religions and prayer will only create further conflict. There's this thing of separation between church and state but far too many seem to pretend it doesn't exist. What if children in the school are Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, etc? You want to force Christianity-based prayer on them? You would be livid if any of those religions were forced onto your child in school and it would stop nothing.
Than I read someone say children today are biologically different. Maybe so but that has no bearing on these school shootings. Children are nurtured to be certain people and are molded by what/how they were taught, life circumstances, and experiences. Use of guns is not nature. Gun use is not the same as genetic disposition to having asthma. I'm not trying to belittle that poster but using biology is not relative to guns, unless there's a genetic mental health issue but all of these shootings are not the result of mental health as many want them to be. Mental health isn't the cause of these shootings, it's the scapegoat.
The shooter in TX was hurt cause he was rejected. People get rejected every day, what made him so special that he had to murder people? Answer: He wasn't taught how to deal with his emotions. Far too many of these children today have a sense of entitlement. They're being raised in an era of instant gratification and everyone gets recognition just for participating and not having to actually earn something.
There's also the respect factor. People who didn't have children or raised their children a certain way decided they wanted to demand parents treat all children one way, despite not knowing a damn thing about them. Every child is different, every household functions differently, everyone's circumstances are different, there is no cookie cutter parenting rules. Nevertheless, they took away paddling in schools, created laws to jail parents for the most minute forms of discipline while at the same time also jailing parents for their children's behavior. Children have learned these rules and I have witnessed them telling parents they'll call the police if they touch them. There is a difference between spankings and abuse but laws were created to punish parents for anything and children have learned to use them to their advantage. They don't have any fear. Parents place their children on punishment and they're accused of abuse. I have seen it first hand. Take away little Johnny's playstation and he's at school telling them his mother abuses him, the school calls child protective services, and then mom is distraught and traumatized cause she loves her child and has not abused him in any way. But now that she has a pending investigation she does nothing and little Johnny runs amok. Mom doesn't dare punish him again cause she doesn't want to go through all the hassle and little Johnny grows up lawless. At the same time, when he's in high school cutting class they want to jail mom for his truancy. Really? She was set up to fail by not being allowed to punish little Johnny and now she's a bad parent cause it's too late to punish him, he's damn near grown. Other parents see what is happening and they ease up on their children so they don't have to go through what little Johnny's mom is going through. And the cycle continues.
Add in the economy and parents are struggling to make ends meet. More families require two incomes, and with drugs and lawlessness there are more single parent households which often result in the lone parent working multiple jobs to keep the family afloat. Enter children raising themselves without guidance and rule enforcement because the parent is often too stressed and tired to render punishment or enforce the rules of the household.
Moral of the story, there are many factors contributing to the decline of control in these children's lives. Instead of prescribing mental health issues to all of them, seek the root cause and deal with it. Also, start programs in early grade school so you can identify the same potential problems before they get older. The key is early identification and intervention. Similar to nursing, there is a sentinel event, we create a team to review the issue and identify the root cause and devise a plan to avoid making the same mistake. When one facility creates a system that works, they share it and others adopt those methods. We need to do the same in and out of school with our children.

If religion/prayer isn't allowed in PUBLIC schools, neither should children be forced to learn about gender, sexual preferences, and the like because some parents don't cotton to the ideas that are in vogue now. They prefer the Bible, the Koran, the traditional teaching of probably every major religion.

No offense is meant to transgenders, bisexuals, or people here other than heterosexuals, although plenty will be taken, no doubt.

my point - school should not be the place where kids are socialized into being illiterate, incapable at math, ignorant of history, and less than superb at English. Schools should not be able to carry girls to have abortions without their parents' involvement. Students should not have to hear anyone's troubles - it's not a therapy group, it's a school. They should not have to focus on people who believe they are something other than the gender they were born.

Put the desks in rows, don't force kids to turn backwards or look sideways at the teacher/ the board.

School is for education, not a forum for social topics. People who want to discuss the topics I believe do not belong in the classroom should meet and to that on their time. Everyone should be welcome in those meetings, including the curious, the seeker, and the already believing. Shut down the public schools. OK, fire away.

OlderbutBetter · May 28, 2018

"5 years????? They should NEVER be able to own a gun EVER again."

I apologize, klone, as this is the first post I have done. But I thought the comment to which I was referring would be adjacent to my comment. The above comment is the rest of this person's opinion. That anyone who has EVER sought treatment, counseling, etc for any mental health concern should lose their 2nd Amendment rights for LIFE!!! I know of several doctors and nurses who developed medical school syndrome and nursing school syndrome (google it, it's a real mental health issue). They become convinced they have whatever disorders they are studying. It is not a joke, it is very serious. As an NP, I have referred several people to mental health professionals and within months, they were much improved. Never was there any homicidal or suicidal ideation. I am appalled that absolutely any mental illness would be considered by a nurse as a reason to deny gun ownership for life, especially when there was never any sort of violence involved. Also, I cannot find any article that is evidenced-based that states any mental disorders always lasts a minimum of 5 years. I tried the NIH, but am curious if maybe you know of a source documenting an evidence-based study that indicates that even 5 years has been proven to be a proven number of years for ANY mental disorder to resolve.

Guest219794 · May 29, 2018

Nurse Blaq, I am only stating my opinion on societal issues that I believe affect the problem being discussed in this thread, please do not put words in my mouth.
Osceteacher, not exactly sure what you point is, but again, please not put words in my mouth or assume to think you know what I watch on TV.
Muno :pls see article below, I think it is interesting...maybe you will too..
hhern, not sure what you mean by Religious right, but most religious people I know donate a lot of money and time to charities and care very much about other people
Did America Have a Christian Founding? | The Heritage Foundation

I am surprised you are not familiar with the term. "Religious" in that they identify strongly as Christian, frequently evangelical. "Right" refers here to right wing, not necessarily being right. Big supporters of moral giants like Roy Moore.

This group tends to be against funding mental health and education. And, very much in sync with the gun lobby.

And to reiterate my earlier disclaimer. I own guns. I have obtained a concealed carry permit. Nothing against religion in general or Christians in particular- I have traveled to Haiti with my Catholic hospital on medical missions, and seen first hand the self sacrificing Christians doing their interpretation of Gods work, Which, incidentally, I am pretty sure does not have to do with a refusal to accept any regulation on guns.

My issue is with your claim that an increase in influence by your brand of Christianity on government will reduce violence. That has, categorically, been untrue in the past.

klone, MSN, RN · May 29, 2018

The Religious Right are the ones who defend Donald Trump for ******* a Media star, likening him to King David.

The “biblical” defense of Trump’s affair with Stormy Daniels - Vox

LilyRN99 · May 29, 2018

The school district my kids go to now have an armed police officer in each school in addition to the regular security staff. I agree with having metal detectors in schools.

Guest219794 · May 29, 2018

Hey Old Dude- This thread has taken a drift. Sorry for my participation in that. I like your intention, and I am quite sure the governor of Texas doesn't need me to defend the first amendment. And, being the governor of Texas, he probably doesn't need Daisy or Kook rooting for a version of government consistent with a particular brand of Christianity, as I am quite sure much if his constituency contacts his office every day on that front.

I am tapping out of that debate, and suggest that others do the same. Really, no need to refute them- any critical thinker reading them already gets it. Those who don't, won't. Daisy and Kook, feel free free to take a free shot here- no argument from me.

I truly have no suggestions I believe will help.

I support common sense gun laws. But, I doubt there will be meaningful change. I think huge amounts of debate and political capitol might be expended, and there will be compromises like limiting scary looking guns, but allowing identical hunting guns. Or, limiting sales of new, high capacity magazines, which I believe will just increase the value of the millions of high capacity magazines in this country already. When you look at all the proposals on the table now, or at least the ones that have any chance of passing, and apply them retroactively to past shootings, I don't think many lives would have been saved.

I support increased mental health services for many reasons. But, I am skeptical that will cause a meaningful decrease in school shootings. Sure, maybe if we doubled early intervention, we might stop a shooting or two 10 years from now.

I have a pessimistic belief that this will not only continue, but increase in frequency.

K9lover, ASN, RN · May 29, 2018

Glad my kids are in their 30's.