Religion & Ectopic Abortion

Decitabinequeen · Dec 11, 2018

Happy.Nurselet said:
Hello nursing community!
I have a question for you all. How do you feel about methotrexate or other drug-based treatment for the termination of ectopic pregnancy? As someone who was raised with very loose christian beliefs and spent some of my young adult years in the Catholic Church, I'm really intrigued to see how much focus there really is on this topic in the medical community. I work in an OBGYN hospital on the triage floor, and many times have had methotrexate used to terminate ectopic pregnancy in non emergent situations. I have seen patients take this in different ways, varying from complete emotional breakdown to sigh of relief. I see this method as one of the safest ways to handle the situation and find the noninvasive nature of it very appealing, but according to the bylaws of the Catholic Church it is still abortion and an excommunicable offense. I am not certain of how other denominations of christianity or other religions view it, and would be curious to learn.
On that note, a couple of questions for you:
How do you feel about termination of an ectopic pregnancy by pharmaceutical means?
What religious background are you speaking from?
How does your denomination/church/religion view this? Are your views in line with theirs, or do you find yourself on the outskirts like me?
And to better understand your viewpoint, do you identify yourself as pro-life, pro-choice, or undecided?
Just so you don't think I am skipping out on the tough one: I am pro-choice (politically speaking) because I believe every woman has a right to make her own choice until the point of fetal viability. Morally speaking, I know that I could not choose to terminate a viable pregnancy under normal circumstances, because I do not believe it is right.
I know this can be a touchy subject for some, therefor I'm asking you to be kind. Please take care when choosing your words, and be kind to others. Everyone with personal connections to this topic will appreciate your gentle approach.

You are contradicting yourself. Your title leads one to believe the question is about ectopic pregnancies and then you slip in your belief about viable pregnancies. An ectopic pregnancy is NOT a viable situation, ever.

I think that you created the post to speak your thoughts on the subject, if so, just own it.

I was raised Catholic and believe that what I believe about abortion only applies to me and my uterus. It is not mine, or anyone else's business what other women do with THEIR uterus.

Julius Seizure · Dec 11, 2018

Persephone Paige said:
I also do not get up on a soapbox and demand abortion be stopped. But, I do believe that others should not be asked to fund things they do not believe in. The health departments provide birth-control free of charge. All that is required is a ride to the clinic once every 3 mos, a commitment to sit in the waiting room until you are seen and a commitment to take a pill, insert a ring, get an injection and use foam and condoms throughout the rest of your cycle while on antibiotics or if you forget to take a pill. So easy... and then nobody is inconvenienced. But, folks don't care. They refuse to be responsible for their own lives and default to government funded abortion ( us, the tax payers ) as birth control.

Who is paying for the birth-control that is provided for free at the health departments? Not "us, the tax payers"?

Julius Seizure · Dec 11, 2018

KelRN215 said:
It's been 18 years and my mother and I still fight about the fact that she forced me to get confirmed when I was 16 years old and knew I didn't want to.

My mom insisted that I go through classes to become a "member" of the church ONLY so that I would be eligible for $500 in college scholarship money.

I wasn't so much against being a part of the church as I was against jumping through stupid hoops in order to get money. If attending the church every Sunday for years isn't enough to qualify me, then forget it.

Persephone Paige, ADN · Dec 11, 2018

Julius Seizure said:
Who is paying for the birth-control that is provided for free at the health departments? Not "us, the tax payers"?

I specifically said in the paragraph below the one you quoted that I was happy to have my taxes help women prevent unwanted pregnancies. Except in cases of rape, incest, etc... it's easy to prevent pregnancy. But, it requires that a woman be responsible. Take that pill ( I never missed one during the 6 years I took them )! I don't want my tax dollars going for abortions where women are too lazy, forgetful, or in general just don't care if they get pregnant. There are consequences to our actions, or inaction. If you are a dolt, come up with the money you need, if you want an abortion.

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Dec 11, 2018

I deeply resent that my tax money is being used to pay for abortions in the state where I live. I don't mind helping to provide women with free birth control, and will gladly pick up the prescription for them if it will prevent an unwanted pregnancy. But to be forced to be an accessory to what I see as a crime against God and humanity? Not OK.

Duranie · Dec 11, 2018

Happy.Nurselet said:
@morte and others with questions on whether the Catholic Church speaks against it, here is a link to why I became frustrated with their approach and started this topic:
https://www.ncbcenter.org/files/9514/6984/9801/MSOB052_When_Pregnancy_Goes_Awry.pdf
This is an article by the national catholic bioethics center which in summary, criticizes the use of drugs that target the fetus, favoring the approach of salpingectomy as "morally acceptable" because it targets not the fetus but the tube which would be subject to rupture. To their credit, the author acknowledges the good will of the physician and the primary goal of protecting the mother.
How many patients have struggled with whether or not to pursue safe treatment out of fear that they would be looked down upon by their church "family"?

FolksBtrippin said:
The OP is not correct about the Catholic Church's stance on treating a woman with an ectopic pregnancy.
The article that was referenced is not a decree from the Pope, it is an essay from a theologian.
The church does not prohibit the termination of an ectopic pregnancy by any means.
It also does not prohibit academics from writing essays on the topic or any other topic.
Get it right. A catholic can write any essay he wants. Unless he's the pope, his opinion is just that. His opinion.
Next imaginary problem please.

This.... 1000x this, FBT.

A theologian's view, put forth to an ethics board, does not create a doctrinal mandate. There are a great many Catholic Ethics committees/boards which operate at a local or regional level (i.e. Diocese) or as is the case of this one, the national level... & there are many, many topics that are debated among priests, bishops, archbishops, even cardinals.... but their opinions are just that- opinions.

Now, that's not to say that their opinions never shape the practice of Catholics in the parish(es) or diocese(s) they have authority over. Questions about various ethical situations are taken before the diocese all the time. The leaders give counsel that they believe is in keeping with currently accepted doctrinal guidelines, and they typically look to published articles like this one to inform their recommendations. Sometimes, there is much debate among said leaders as to exactly which opinions they should base their opinions on.

(Similar to how a court has to decide which precedent to use when making a ruling. )

But ultimately, doctrinal edict must come from one source only... the Pope.

OP, in your own words, the author "criticizes" chemotherapeutic termination, and then goes on to cite the reasons he has come to that conclusion- i.e. that chemotherapeutic termination only targets the fetus, and that somehow taking out the entire Fallopian tube is better because the death of the fetus is just an unfortunate byproduct of the procedure.

This is obviously rhetorical in this forum, but Here's what I would want to ask the NCBC/author:

Since the "commandment" to "be fruitful and multiply" is still in effect, and tubal ligation is still "prohibited", how does a recommendation favoring salpingectomy represent the "morally acceptable" solution, when it will effectively reduce a woman's fertility by 50%? Her future chances of conception ought to be a factor if a church's doctrinal teachings are that a woman should not artificially prevent conception.

I realize that very few Catholic women abide by the "no artificial birth control rule".... but for the sake of [friendly] argument, wouldn't it be better to preserve future fertility where possible. I know there used to be OB's that would attempt to "clean out" the Fallopian tube, especially if a woman only had one.... this was decades ago, before there were chemical options available. To me, chemical termination is simply a potentially safer, certainly less invasive, achieve the same result- preservation of future fertility by avoiding loss of the tube.

This topic just isn't something that is likely to be specifically addressed by the Pope. So Catholic women will have to consider & come to a decision that they feel is best given their own beliefs and values.

As for the question of how many women are afraid of being "looked down on by their church family".... I don't know that most people, upon learning that someone has lost a pregnancy, go looking for the gory details. And that's assuming that anyone in her congregation is even privy to the fact that she is PG.

I believe (and it's been my experience) that if they are given the chance, most people of faith are compassionate and loving in situations such as this.

OP, I think you need to be careful, especially with a patient, with your terminology. Your definition of abortion is certainly technically correct. However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that the term loses its negative connotations when it is used to refer to spontaneous or medically-necessary terminations. Even the word "termination" is fraught with negative emotion, although not quite as much... maybe because it sounds more clinical, idk.... I know that there's a prick to my heart every single time I've seen "spontaneous abortion" on my medical record.... the first time, (before nsg school) I was in tears telling my OBGYN that I had a miscarriage not an abortion, and he explained to me that was what it meant. Just that word... abortion... it felt so wrong and I was always afraid that it would somehow be misunderstood.

NutmeggeRN, BSN · Dec 11, 2018

Born and raised a Catholic but have many, many issues with the Church and its teachings. I guess I would define myself a Christian today...loosely. I am firmly a pro-choice believer. religion has nothing to do with what happens to a woman that results in a pregnancy. Anectopic pregnancy can be deadly to the mother if not dealt with. Apples and organges as far as that and an elective TAB, but again, I still feel that it is a personal choice.

morte, LPN, LVN · Dec 11, 2018

jetsy62 said:
The situation you describe is not an abortion and I do not believe it is in conflict with any religion, except maybe those that believe any kind of medical intervention for anything is wrong and one should only rely on prayer for resolution.

It certainly IS an abortion!

morte, LPN, LVN · Dec 11, 2018

DoItAll1 said:
Treating an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. There is no way to save the baby, as the embryo is implanted outside the uterus and will not survive. It is extremely dangerous to the mother and can result in emergency surgery or even death in some cases. I work at a Catholic hospital and we have done surgeries for ectopic pregnancies. I'm very strongly pro-life and a Christian.

Yes it is an abortion.

angel0309, ADN, RN · Dec 11, 2018

Persephone Paige said:
I am pro-life, as I believe there are plenty of families who would give anything for a child. That being said, ectopic pregnancy is life threatening. And unless there are some new procedures I know nothing about, the mother may well die if the pregnancy continues. So, I believe she should be helped in whatever way to not die from it. If that involves medication assistance, so be it.
I was raised Christian. I identify as 'pro-life,' for myself. I do not volunteer my beliefs to patients. In fact, I do not volunteer my beliefs to anyone unless I am asked specifically.
I also do not get up on a soapbox and demand abortion be stopped. But, I do believe that others should not be asked to fund things they do not believe in. The health departments provide birth-control free of charge. All that is required is a ride to the clinic once every 3 mos, a commitment to sit in the waiting room until you are seen and a commitment to take a pill, insert a ring, get an injection and use foam and condoms throughout the rest of your cycle while on antibiotics or if you forget to take a pill. So easy... and then nobody is inconvenienced. But, folks don't care. They refuse to be responsible for their own lives and default to government funded abortion ( us, the tax payers ) as birth control.
I am, in my own way, a feminist. The way that I avoided anyone having a say with my body was to take responsibility for my own reproductive rights. I had two children, both planned; seven (7) years apart. Then, no more. I'm down with no unwanted children. I would have gone to the nut hut if I had had a bunch of kids. So, I made sure I didn't. I'm happy to contribute taxes to help young women prevent unwanted pregnancy. I am not happy to contribute to killing a child because a woman was lazy and irresponsible sexually.
* I am not referring to rape, incest, etc...

I promised myself that I wasn't going to respond to anything I read on this thread, but here I am breaking my promise. I'd really just like to point out that it seems that you have a very one-sided view of how "easy" it is to prevent pregnancy. As a nurse, you should know that the pill is only 93% effective. So what about that 7% of people that did everything "right" and still gets pregnant? What about the people who don't have access to a health department that provides free birth control? Because not every health department does. I was actually at the health department yesterday getting a vaccination and I was reading through their pamphlet on birth control. They will write a prescription for the pill or other forms of birth control, but you fill it yourself. AKA it's not free if it's not covered by your insurance.

I'm not going to try to convince you that abortion is morally right, but I encourage you to think about things from outside of your own perspective. I, unfortunately, did everything right and still wound up pregnant at 14. I miscarried that baby at only 10 weeks, but what would you have done in that scenario? I was on the pill, did everything right. But I was the 7%. I should mention that this wasn't consensual sex, but for the sake of argument, let's say it was. Would you cary a baby to term at 14? I know I wouldn't have.

In a perfect world, yes, we would all have access to free or low cost, effective birth control, but we're not there yet. I am privileged enough now to have great health insurance that covered my IUD in full, but I can't imagine what I'd do if my insurance didn't cover birth control in full. I really encourage you think from the perspective of other women. Especially underprivileged women. I have a few articles with women's stories. If you'd like to read a few, please PM me.

morte, LPN, LVN · Dec 11, 2018

Persephone Paige said:
I specifically said in the paragraph below the one you quoted that I was happy to have my taxes help women prevent unwanted pregnancies. Except in cases of rape, incest, etc... it's easy to prevent pregnancy. But, it requires that a woman be responsible. Take that pill ( I never missed one during the 6 years I took them )! I don't want my tax dollars going for abortions where women are too lazy, forgetful, or in general just don't care if they get pregnant. There are consequences to our actions, or inaction. If you are a dolt, come up with the money you need, if you want an abortion.

and those women do come up with the money, or their partners do. fed money does not pay for elective abortion, some states do.

morte, LPN, LVN · Dec 11, 2018

Persephone Paige said:
I am pro-life, as I believe there are plenty of families who would give anything for a child. That being said, ectopic pregnancy is life threatening. And unless there are some new procedures I know nothing about, the mother may well die if the pregnancy continues. So, I believe she should be helped in whatever way to not die from it. If that involves medication assistance, so be it.
I was raised Christian. I identify as 'pro-life,' for myself. I do not volunteer my beliefs to patients. In fact, I do not volunteer my beliefs to anyone unless I am asked specifically.
I also do not get up on a soapbox and demand abortion be stopped. But, I do believe that others should not be asked to fund things they do not believe in. The health departments provide birth-control free of charge. All that is required is a ride to the clinic once every 3 mos, a commitment to sit in the waiting room until you are seen and a commitment to take a pill, insert a ring, get an injection and use foam and condoms throughout the rest of your cycle while on antibiotics or if you forget to take a pill. So easy... and then nobody is inconvenienced. But, folks don't care. They refuse to be responsible for their own lives and default to government funded abortion ( us, the tax payers ) as birth control.
I am, in my own way, a feminist. The way that I avoided anyone having a say with my body was to take responsibility for my own reproductive rights. I had two children, both planned; seven (7) years apart. Then, no more. I'm down with no unwanted children. I would have gone to the nut hut if I had had a bunch of kids. So, I made sure I didn't. I'm happy to contribute taxes to help young women prevent unwanted pregnancy. I am not happy to contribute to killing a child because a woman was lazy and irresponsible sexually.
* I am not referring to rape, incest, etc...

fed money does not go to elective abortion. some states support. sl more than 1/2 of abortions follow failed BC.