Religion & Ectopic Abortion

[Happy.Nurselet]

Hello nursing community!

I have a question for you all. How do you feel about methotrexate or other drug-based treatment for the termination of ectopic pregnancy? As someone who was raised with very loose christian beliefs and spent some of my young adult years in the Catholic Church, I'm really intrigued to see how much focus there really is on this topic in the medical community. I work in an OBGYN hospital on the triage floor, and many times have had methotrexate used to terminate ectopic pregnancy in non emergent situations. I have seen patients take this in different ways, varying from complete emotional breakdown to sigh of relief. I see this method as one of the safest ways to handle the situation and find the noninvasive nature of it very appealing, but according to the bylaws of the Catholic Church it is still abortion and an excommunicable offense. I am not certain of how other denominations of christianity or other religions view it, and would be curious to learn.

On that note, a couple of questions for you:

How do you feel about termination of an ectopic pregnancy by pharmaceutical means?

What religious background are you speaking from?

How does your denomination/church/religion view this? Are your views in line with theirs, or do you find yourself on the outskirts like me?

And to better understand your viewpoint, do you identify yourself as pro-life, pro-choice, or undecided?

Just so you don't think I am skipping out on the tough one: I am pro-choice (politically speaking) because I believe every woman has a right to make her own choice until the point of fetal viability. Morally speaking, I know that I could not choose to terminate a viable pregnancy under normal circumstances, because I do not believe it is right.

I know this can be a touchy subject for some, therefor I'm asking you to be kind. Please take care when choosing your words, and be kind to others. Everyone with personal connections to this topic will appreciate your gentle approach.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

marpee said:

I agree with this. I am a pro-life, but definitely also a pro-choice. And I believe that it is not "abortion" to do a medical treatment on an ectopic pregnancy situation.

But it is, and needs to be acknowledged.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

angel0309 said:

I promised myself that I wasn't going to respond to anything I read on this thread, but here I am breaking my promise. I'd really just like to point out that it seems that you have a very one-sided view of how "easy" it is to prevent pregnancy. As a nurse, you should know that the pill is only 93% effective. So what about that 7% of people that did everything "right" and still gets pregnant? What about the people who don't have access to a health department that provides free birth control? Because not every health department does. I was actually at the health department yesterday getting a vaccination and I was reading through their pamphlet on birth control. They will write a prescription for the pill or other forms of birth control, but you fill it yourself. AKA it's not free if it's not covered by your insurance.

I'm not going to try to convince you that abortion is morally right, but I encourage you to think about things from outside of your own perspective. I, unfortunately, did everything right and still wound up pregnant at 14. I miscarried that baby at only 10 weeks, but what would you have done in that scenario? I was on the pill, did everything right. But I was the 7%. I should mention that this wasn't consensual sex, but for the sake of argument, let's say it was. Would you cary a baby to term at 14? I know I wouldn't have.

In a perfect world, yes, we would all have access to free or low cost, effective birth control, but we're not there yet. I am privileged enough now to have great health insurance that covered my IUD in full, but I can't imagine what I'd do if my insurance didn't cover birth control in full. I really encourage you think from the perspective of other women. Especially underprivileged women. I have a few articles with women's stories. If you'd like to read a few, please PM me.

Thank you!!!

[jetsy62]

Is the course of treatment for an ectopic pregnancy methotrexate, salpingostomy, salpingectomy or abortion? OP, just want to know what your records show as course of treatment. On the OR schedule, I can assure you that salpingostomy and salpingectomy are listed, never have I seen abortion.

[cmefford]

morte said:

fed money does not go to elective abortion. some states support. sl more than 1/2 of abortions follow failed BC.

In a 2010 report examining contraceptive use in the United States over the last 30 years, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reaches this conclusion:

One-half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and the average probability of an unintended pregnancy in 12 months of contraceptive use in the United States is 12%, unchanged from 1995.

[Persephone Paige, ADN]

angel0309 said:

I promised myself that I wasn't going to respond to anything I read on this thread, but here I am breaking my promise. I'd really just like to point out that it seems that you have a very one-sided view of how "easy" it is to prevent pregnancy. As a nurse, you should know that the pill is only 93% effective. So what about that 7% of people that did everything "right" and still gets pregnant? What about the people who don't have access to a health department that provides free birth control? Because not every health department does. I was actually at the health department yesterday getting a vaccination and I was reading through their pamphlet on birth control. They will write a prescription for the pill or other forms of birth control, but you fill it yourself. AKA it's not free if it's not covered by your insurance.

I'm not going to try to convince you that abortion is morally right, but I encourage you to think about things from outside of your own perspective. I, unfortunately, did everything right and still wound up pregnant at 14. I miscarried that baby at only 10 weeks, but what would you have done in that scenario? I was on the pill, did everything right. But I was the 7%. I should mention that this wasn't consensual sex, but for the sake of argument, let's say it was. Would you cary a baby to term at 14? I know I wouldn't have.

In a perfect world, yes, we would all have access to free or low cost, effective birth control, but we're not there yet. I am privileged enough now to have great health insurance that covered my IUD in full, but I can't imagine what I'd do if my insurance didn't cover birth control in full. I really encourage you think from the perspective of other women. Especially underprivileged women. I have a few articles with women's stories. If you'd like to read a few, please PM me.

This is not my thread. I simply responded. This has been MY experience. You have YOUR experience...

[/username, BSN, RN]

angel0309 said:

I promised myself that I wasn't going to respond to anything I read on this thread, but here I am breaking my promise. I'd really just like to point out that it seems that you have a very one-sided view of how "easy" it is to prevent pregnancy. As a nurse, you should know that the pill is only 93% effective. So what about that 7% of people that did everything "right" and still gets pregnant? What about the people who don't have access to a health department that provides free birth control? Because not every health department does. I was actually at the health department yesterday getting a vaccination and I was reading through their pamphlet on birth control. They will write a prescription for the pill or other forms of birth control, but you fill it yourself. AKA it's not free if it's not covered by your insurance.

I'm not going to try to convince you that abortion is morally right, but I encourage you to think about things from outside of your own perspective. I, unfortunately, did everything right and still wound up pregnant at 14. I miscarried that baby at only 10 weeks, but what would you have done in that scenario? I was on the pill, did everything right. But I was the 7%. I should mention that this wasn't consensual sex, but for the sake of argument, let's say it was. Would you cary a baby to term at 14? I know I wouldn't have.

In a perfect world, yes, we would all have access to free or low cost, effective birth control, but we're not there yet. I am privileged enough now to have great health insurance that covered my IUD in full, but I can't imagine what I'd do if my insurance didn't cover birth control in full. I really encourage you think from the perspective of other women. Especially underprivileged women. I have a few articles with women's stories. If you'd like to read a few, please PM me.

You're wasting your breath. It's the same tired trope. "Christians" who seek to force their religion on others, and pass judgement based on their narrow view of morality, unless it happens to them or someone in their family.

[offlabel]

FolksBtrippin said:

Also...

"Excommunicable offense"

Hahahaha.

There is no such thing in the Catholic Church. You can't even excommunicate yourself. Your parents baptize you and you are a catholic forever more. You might be a bad Catholic, but you're still a Catholic according to the church. You might decide you are an atheist or a voodoo priest or a mormon, they don't care. You're a Catholic to them. Period.

Excommunicated... lol.

Excommunication is a real penalty in the Catholic Church that is meant to get the attention of the individual(s) that is in contradiction to what the Church teaches. Pope Francis has already excommunicated a couple of people. It really isn't that uncommon. And there is such a thing as automatic excommunication as well. Abortion is one of them. The thing is, though, it isn't at all meant to be permanent. Just to send a strong message.

As to methyltrexate and tubal pregnancies, if it is the intention and effect of the therapy to specifically target the developing fetus for destruction, then, yes, the Church speaks against that. It isn't an opinion. What is up for grabs is the actual mechanism and effect of the therapy.

It is an uncomfortable line to take, but there are options that don't make this type of treatment the only course of action. That is what the big deal is here. Women who might choose differently not being given every option going forward for the purposes of medical expediency and not necessarily the woman's best interests.

[angel0309, ADN, RN]

Persephone Paige said:

This is not my thread. I simply responded. This has been MY experience. You have YOUR experience...

I don't know why I expected an open minded response....

[VivaLasViejas, ASN, RN]

offlabel said:

Excommunication is a real penalty in the Catholic Church that is meant to get the attention of the individual(s) that is in contradiction to what the Church teaches. Pope Francis has already excommunicated a couple of people. It really isn't that uncommon. And there is such a thing as automatic excommunication as well. Abortion is one of them. The thing is, though, it isn't at all meant to be permanent. Just to send a strong message.

Excommunication does not mean a Catholic is no longer a member of the Church. It means that the person is no longer able to receive the Eucharist, AKA Communion. This action can be reversed by a sincere Confession and absolution as long as the person expresses true sorrow that he/she has offended God by his/her sins. There is no sin that cannot be forgiven except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

[Persephone Paige, ADN]

angel0309 said:

I don't know why I expected an open minded response....

Yes, never assume.

[mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN]

I had a friend who had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. She lived. She also was told she would never have a child. She got pregnant on her honeymoon :) She could have died.

I was raised Catholic and I don't know how they view ectopic pregnancies.

[mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN]

Not sure if this helps, I was curious,

"Full Question

What is the Church's teaching on ectopic pregnancies?

Answer

Moral actions that produce two effects need to be evaluated under the Catholic understanding of the principle of double effect:

The action must be either morally good or neutral.

The bad effect must not be the means by which the good effect is achieved.

The intention must be the achieving of only the good effect; the bad effect can in no way be intended and must be avoided if possible.

The good effect must be at least equivalent in proportion to the bad effect.

An ectopic pregnancy occurs when the fertilized ovum implants in the fallopian tube or in some other location. A mother facing a tubal pregnancy risks imminent rupture of the fallopian tube and thus there exists a danger to both the life of the mother and the child.

Removing the fallopian tube is considered in accordance with the principle of double effect:

Removing a part of the body that is about to rupture and cause the death of the individual is a morally good action.

The death of the child is not direct intention of the procedure. It is the removal of the fallopian tube that saves the life of the mother, not causes the death of the child.

The death of the child is not willed and would be avoided if at all possible-if, for example, re-implantation in the womb was reasonably possible.

The life of the mother is, of course, equal to the life of the child.