As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
PLEASE DO NOT listen to whoever it is that is causing you to doubt your choice to be an LPN. I am very proud to be an LPN and you should be also I currently work on the Spinal Cord Injury Unit at the VA here in Cleveland OH. Our unit is number 1 in the NATION for SCI rehabilitation. My job as an LPN is identical to that of the RN (whether they be ASN or BSN) with only these exceptions. I can't PUSH IV meds, and I can't initiate certain IVF's or flush central lines. There are certain things that are not within our scope of practice. Aside from that I DO EVERYTHING THE RN IS DOING but get paid an LPN salary. (this is why I chose to get my RN because I love it on SCI and do not want to leave so why not get paid to do a job I already do.) I would also like to address your clinical worries. I have worked with seasoned RN's as well as New Grads and let me tell you this, some of the LPN new grads have FAR more clinical savy than the RN's. Especially with regards to IV's. Since it our choice as LPN's to become certified whether the facility you're at sends you or you choose to get certified on your own, we tend to know more. Sad to say but RN programs only give students little more than a week of lecture(facts that came from RN students ) on fluid balance etc and a day or so hands on. Our certification program is intense and we are required to pass an extremely detailed exam and be compitent with starting IV's as well as interventions.
I as well do not want to start trouble but please do not second guess yourself. You will see many capable LPN's and this business of doing away with them altogether has come and gone over the years. If your goal is to become an RN great, the LPN position will allow you that opportunity with more flexibility. But going to school for 2 or 4 years for your RN degree does not in anyway indicate you are a BETTER nurse. We all learn by doing! We hired an RN recently on our floor, she was a nurse in the ER for 12 years, when she had a pt that needed meds administered through an NG tube she was absolutely lost. She was terrified and COMPLETELY CLUELESS. She knows how to do this now but it took an LPN to show her the ropes. Another new grad RN had never even seen a supra pubic catheter let alone change one Again, these were skills
I learned in my LPN clinical's. I will never disregard the education that the RN has as I am continuing my education now as well but I encourage all readers to please never doubt the knowledge or clinical aptitude of a well trained LPN.
I as well do not want to start trouble but please do not second guess yourself. You will see many capable LPN's and this business of doing away with them altogether has come and gone over the years.
I must agree. Honestly LPNs aren't going anywhere, I've heard this for my entire nursing career. Their opportunities are not limited either; I have never worked in any setting that did not utilize LPNs. Also I wouldn't worry about others' perceptions, it doesn't matter what your educational background others will find a way to scorn it. Either you got too much or too little or whatever.
I hope you never have to come north to work. PNs do initial assessment, carry their own insurance, discharge teach, etc. The only thing we don't do is pierce the blood and travisol bags. In certain provinces, I can declare death.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I make more than RNs in several states.
i don't prefer to work for less. i didn't wake up one day and say "let me go to LPN school, because i really want to get $10 less an hour and have to work twice as hard for respect". i didn't get into an RN program. i was wait listed. i wanted to get my foot in the door and i work full time. i have the utmost respect for LPNs and i have learned so much from the LPNs i used to work with in the hospital, so i figured it was worth a shot. and i'm glad i did it.
i work in a GI med/surg unit and i love it and i have said before i am happy to work there for a little less than i would make at LTC and i'm glad the hospital has faith in my knowledge and skills and did not snub my application because i am "only" an LPN. i am moving next month and have been offered a job on telemetry unit in a hospital. the experience i will gain is invaluable to me and it will in the long run make me an awesome nurse.
i am bridging to RN within the next 2 years, as i am moving out of state and have to wait for the next application process which will probably be spring of 2010. and that will be an ADN program. i cannot afford at this time in my life to pay the tuition for four years at a university.
if the RN level was limited to BSN's, it would wipe out many an excellent nurse to be who cannot afford university tuition. what they need to do is bring back hospital diploma nursing programs, in my opinion, because those nurses are so well trained on bedside care and nursing, instead of paper writing, care planning and theory. my mom went to a diploma RN program before going back for her bachelor's degree and her tales of nursing school would make the students of today cringe, but she was ready to hit the floor running as a brand new grad nurse.
i learn each and everyday. just because i am a LPN doesn't mean i am some trained monkey. any nurse who tells you they don't learn everyday is lying.
i agree the more education, the better. some nurses are very content at being LPNs and that choice should be respected. we need to respect each other in this profession. and as a LPN, at work i feel respected, but when i come on here, i feel like i am a burden because of the comments made about us by my fellow nurses. LPNs are of a huge value to the field of nursing and should not go anywhere.
Why should a brand new graduate nurse be able to, "hit the ground running"? Do physicians, "hit the ground running", the day after they graduate? I don't think so. Neither do Pharmacists, Physical Therapists, Occupations Therapists, etc. You get the picture.
These individual all earn more money than nurses. Part of that is the longer educational pathway to reach the entry level education level. This longer pathway weeds out a number of individuals. There is beauty in that. These professions are not plagued by the, "dime a dozen", mentality that comes with new practictioners coming out of, "ABC Community College", every six months, thereby flooding the market with new grads.
Nursing needs to get over this, "martyr mary mentality", of hitting the ground running, and advance to a Bachelors Degree as the entry into practice. LPN/LVNs need to advance to a two year Associates Degree. Who cares that individuals will not be able to attend nursing school if the educational level was increased? It didn't seem to matter to Physical Therapists who went to a Doctorate, Occupational Therapists, who went to a Masters Degree, or Pharmacists, who also went to a Doctorate. They are actually happy that the educational level was increase, because this makes them more in demand, an allows them to earn more money.
What should matter is bringing nursing up to the educational level of other health care professionals. Who, by the way, out earn us by alot of money. They also control their profession.
I was originally a diploma grad from 1975. It did not take me long after I graduated to figure out who was at the bottom of the food chain. It sure wasn't the therapists, dieticians, pharmacists. I will give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. We are kidding ourselves if we think that our low levels of education are not reflected in our low pay, status, and lack of control. We are forever apologizing for our low levels of education. In addition to making the BSN the enry into practice, we need to start making new grads go through a new grad internship for at least six months. It would decrease the "sticker shock", after graduation, and decrease burn out. Other professions who have madatory internships after graduation, to not have the mass exodus out of the profession one or two years after graduation, like nursing does. They also have a much higher satisfaction rate than nursing does. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.
Well, Linda...how many nurses does a hospital require to take care of all their patients vs how many pharmacists, nutritionists, physical therapists, etc??
You can espouse the BSN as entry level to nursing as you want, but it's an old worn out argument that will never play out.
Very nicely put-----i too am happy being who i am----if i had wanted to go back to school-i would have. I have seen excellent nurses, and some nurses who should not even call themselves a nurse---we all contribute to the process.
Linda's point is being missed, if you want to call yourself a professional anything one year doesn't cut it! All other professions have made their entry level count! Why can't we?
The only nurses that ever hit the floor running were the diploma nurses (as I am told) they were free labor for the hospitals that trained them. Anyone can learn and master skills, are you just anyone? Family members are trained to dress wounds, give parenteral nutritions, and a myriad of other skills. Skills they have, but that does not make them nurses. Many of those responding seem to think their superior skills make them special, why eventually everyone gets them-even lay people.
Many of you have legitimate gripes, but until there is a generalized acceptance that we are ALL LOOKED DOWN UPON BY THE ESTABLISHMENT DUE TO LACK OF EDUCATION, there will be no change until we change!
Perhaps it could be done in levels, perhaps it should be done in levels, BUT IT SHOULD BE DONE! Not everyone can be a physician, engineer or whatever else, MAYBE not everyone should be a nurse no matter "how pure" the want. We are the eyes and ears that monitor, provide care, intervene, encourage, counsel and educate. Shouldn't we be doing that as educated individuals? Shouldn't we be able to access the management tiers that make the laws? Make the policies? Create the budget? You can't without those letters.
I am tired of hearing nurses are blue collared workers, and I am tired of working like a dog! The reason I have chosen to advance my education is to be on par with those who speak out of their butts! Having those letters allows me to challenge their narrow views-I have loads of managerial and work experience, I know how to deal with customers and am so sick of NMs (mostly women) who don't know how to run things and are unwilling to step out of their boxes!
CNAs, LPNs, ADNs and BSNs we need to keep educating ourselves-every point of view and experience needs to be represented in the top offices, unfortunately no one will ever know how it was to be you unless you are representing in a higher capacity. Education is that way!
JMHO,
M
If BSN were to be entry level, I agree with everyone that the clinical skills would have to be much better and standardized across the board. Most BSN graduates I have worked under(as a tech), and precepted had less experience than I did in my second semester of clinicals during my ADN program. Personally I think they need continue throughout the four years. I also think that no Advance Practice Nurse should be allowed to practice without at least 3 years experience, and or an internship. I find it scary that anyone with any degree can become an Advance practice nurse-no wonder people have a field day with that position too!
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
i'm done with this thread.
i've said all i wanted to say, and i'm done.
i, as a nurse, am sick of defending myself to other nurses.
carry on.
At this point, I am feeling the same way. There is nothing wrong with being 'me'. I don't see CNAs defending their positions on a daily basis, so, why should I?
A point in re to comparing nurses to other areas of healthcare, therapists of any kind, mds, pharmacists, repiratory, etc. Because these other areas of health care are not as hands on as nurses, the patient-to-provider ratio is very different. That's the positive and the negative about nursing.
In general we know the patients better. Whether it's 1 nurse to 15 patients (horrible) or 1 to 3, nurses are with the patients more-in terms of numbers of hours, providing direct care. Whatever the ratio, nurses are with those patients the entire shift.
With the other disciplines, it's a visit or a session of some sort but they're never with the patients the entire shift, seeing to the majority of his/her needs.
The other disciplines have a schedule of providing services, even a long PT session is probably max 2 or 3 hours. they spend much less time with the patient. Nurses spend the entire shift with their patients. This can be really good.
What's really bad is that as a result of this we get the responsibility and the scut work. Therein lies how we're viewed. It's likely where the old "nurses giving massages" kinda' sexist thing came from.
So, in a facility, at any given time there is likely 10 or so nurses at least to any other discipline. Just in terms of numbers, Nurses are like the foot soldiers and other disciplines are like the sargeants, lieutenants, generals, majors-in terms of numbers.
Now, what's really, really good about this is because we are the majority, we could run hospitals. What stops us is not being cohesive. We have the numbers, we could run healthcare. We would have to be more political, be more cohesive, have less controversy among us. For this one reason alone, I think it would be a good idea to figure a way to elevate all LPNs to RN status, through an educational course of about 6 to 10 months, then eliminate the LPN and really push for and support making nursing schools more financially accessible to Americans.
I've not seen much practical difference in ADN and BSN skill sets, BSNs get more liberal arts or social education and BSNs have more opportunity for admin. positions. So, there would be RNs and APNs. Nurses could be more cohesive and more politically powerful, more in control of salaries, staffing, etc. Like how the APNs now can write scripts and see patients without a physician present, in a lot of states. That was pure politics. It worked and it's a good thing.
As an LPN that starts RN school in May, I don't believe that LPN's should be done away with. I will tell you that if I start the day with 3 patients and my RN starts with 2 I will be the one that ends up with 5 patients by the end of the day! I think that the people who think that LPN's are inferior nurses feel theatened by us. We are capable, useful and good at our jobs. Yes there are LPN's out there that aren't all of those things but there are RN's that aren't those things either. The LPN program that I went through was very intense, more so than the RN program. I wouldn't change my decision to work as an LPN and gain the knowledge and experience I have before being put into more of a leadership position as an RN.
No matter what you want to call it a there is room for a 1 yr and 2 yr nurse where the rubber hits the road. This weeds out those that go to RN school then get their first job only to quit because nursing is not their bag. Hum, I beleive and all RN's should be a transition. Go to school a few hours every day then work an 8 hour shift at least five days a week. As they get closer to graduating that transition to the more normal 10 to 14 hour days 6 and 7 day weeks. During this apprenticship type education the system would rid the health care system of the cooshy job nurses. Being an RN is not a coochy job so everything leading up to graduation should reflect this !
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EBibeault
27 Posts
Dear DarkRainyDays,
PLEASE DO NOT listen to whoever it is that is causing you to doubt your choice to be an LPN.
I am very proud to be an LPN and you should be also I currently work on the Spinal Cord Injury Unit at the VA here in Cleveland OH. Our unit is number 1 in the NATION for SCI rehabilitation. My job as an LPN is identical to that of the RN (whether they be ASN or BSN) with only these exceptions. I can't PUSH IV meds, and I can't initiate certain IVF's or flush central lines. There are certain things that are not within our scope of practice. Aside from that I DO EVERYTHING THE RN IS DOING but get paid an LPN salary. (this is why I chose to get my RN because I love it on SCI and do not want to leave so why not get paid to do a job I already do.) I would also like to address your clinical worries. I have worked with seasoned RN's as well as New Grads and let me tell you this, some of the LPN new grads have FAR more clinical savy than the RN's. Especially with regards to IV's. Since it our choice as LPN's to become certified whether the facility you're at sends you or you choose to get certified on your own, we tend to know more. Sad to say but RN programs only give students little more than a week of lecture(facts that came from RN students ) on fluid balance etc and a day or so hands on. Our certification program is intense and we are required to pass an extremely detailed exam and be compitent with starting IV's as well as interventions.
I as well do not want to start trouble but please do not second guess yourself. You will see many capable LPN's and this business of doing away with them altogether has come and gone over the years. If your goal is to become an RN great, the LPN position will allow you that opportunity with more flexibility. But going to school for 2 or 4 years for your RN degree does not in anyway indicate you are a BETTER nurse. We all learn by doing! We hired an RN recently on our floor, she was a nurse in the ER for 12 years, when she had a pt that needed meds administered through an NG tube she was absolutely lost. She was terrified and COMPLETELY CLUELESS. She knows how to do this now but it took an LPN to show her the ropes. Another new grad RN had never even seen a supra pubic catheter let alone change one Again, these were skills
I learned in my LPN clinical's. I will never disregard the education that the RN has as I am continuing my education now as well but I encourage all readers to please never doubt the knowledge or clinical aptitude of a well trained LPN.