As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
We should get rid of the LPNs and ADN RN programs and increase the size of BSN programs. Nurses work hard for their credentials, are smart and work hard in their jobs, let's get the degrees and respect and pay we deserve! I am sick of these martyr nurses who "don't care" about what the public thinks or how much money they earn because they "just want to help people." We should take pride in our skills and credentials, not a perverse pride in our selflessness. This is from an ADN prepared RN who now regrets not doing the extra work or paying the extra expense for the BSN. I do the same work as a BSN prepared nurse and am nearly as well educated (have a previous BA) abut I am "just" an ADN nurse. The LPN and ADN shouldn't even be available options. Plus I feel bad for the LPN nurses who have paid so much money for their educations at technical colleges and then often have to redo a lot of their education to get credit for it if they want to pursue a higher degree. It's a rip off.
I am no matyr. I am content earning over 41,000 a year for working no overtime, straight days 3 days a week. While I enjoy education, becoming an Rn does not interest me. I am quite happy with my employer and my working in the hospital.At this stage in my life, other things interest me outside of work.
Linda's point is being missed, if you want to call yourself a professional anything one year doesn't cut it! All other professions have made their entry level count! Why can't we?
The only nurses that ever hit the floor running were the diploma nurses (as I am told) they were free labor for the hospitals that trained them. Anyone can learn and master skills, are you just anyone? Family members are trained to dress wounds, give parenteral nutritions, and a myriad of other skills. Skills they have, but that does not make them nurses. Many of those responding seem to think their superior skills make them special, why eventually everyone gets them-even lay people.
Many of you have legitimate gripes, but until there is a generalized acceptance that we are ALL LOOKED DOWN UPON BY THE ESTABLISHMENT DUE TO LACK OF EDUCATION, there will be no change until we change!
Perhaps it could be done in levels, perhaps it should be done in levels, BUT IT SHOULD BE DONE! Not everyone can be a physician, engineer or whatever else, MAYBE not everyone should be a nurse no matter "how pure" the want. We are the eyes and ears that monitor, provide care, intervene, encourage, counsel and educate. Shouldn't we be doing that as educated individuals? Shouldn't we be able to access the management tiers that make the laws? Make the policies? Create the budget? You can't without those letters.
I am tired of hearing nurses are blue collared workers, and I am tired of working like a dog! The reason I have chosen to advance my education is to be on par with those who speak out of their butts! Having those letters allows me to challenge their narrow views-I have loads of managerial and work experience, I know how to deal with customers and am so sick of NMs (mostly women) who don't know how to run things and are unwilling to step out of their boxes!
CNAs, LPNs, ADNs and BSNs we need to keep educating ourselves-every point of view and experience needs to be represented in the top offices, unfortunately no one will ever know how it was to be you unless you are representing in a higher capacity. Education is that way!
JMHO,
M
If BSN were to be entry level, I agree with everyone that the clinical skills would have to be much better and standardized across the board. Most BSN graduates I have worked under(as a tech), and precepted had less experience than I did in my second semester of clinicals during my ADN program. Personally I think they need continue throughout the four years. I also think that no Advance Practice Nurse should be allowed to practice without at least 3 years experience, and or an internship. I find it scary that anyone with any degree can become an Advance practice nurse-no wonder people have a field day with that position too!
I do fully see both your and Linda's points; however, implementing tougher educational requirements for nursing only makes sense if facilities are willing to give nurses the pay and respect they deserve. I guess it's a "what came first, the chicken or the egg" type of situation...
We should get rid of the LPNs and ADN RN programs and increase the size of BSN programs. Nurses work hard for their credentials, are smart and work hard in their jobs, let's get the degrees and respect and pay we deserve! I am sick of these martyr nurses who "don't care" about what the public thinks or how much money they earn because they "just want to help people." We should take pride in our skills and credentials, not a perverse pride in our selflessness. This is from an ADN prepared RN who now regrets not doing the extra work or paying the extra expense for the BSN. I do the same work as a BSN prepared nurse and am nearly as well educated (have a previous BA) abut I am "just" an ADN nurse. The LPN and ADN shouldn't even be available options. Plus I feel bad for the LPN nurses who have paid so much money for their educations at technical colleges and then often have to redo a lot of their education to get credit for it if they want to pursue a higher degree. It's a rip off.
1.Not every nurse has the time and money to go for her BSN.
2. All nurses care about their salaries some are too scared of losing it to stand up 4 themselves.
3/ you are not JUST an ADN nurse , you are a valuble member of your team.
1.Not every nurse has the time and money to go for her BSN.
If I had to have a BSN to become a nurse, I would not be in school for nursing. I'm surprised that its so "all or nothing" like this philosophy. If I were brand new out of high school with no family I would have the time and money. But at this stage in the game (in my 30s) I just am not interested in any career where I can't start working until I'm half way through a decade. Not saying that I won't go there, because I plan to go "all the way" but I think that its a really GOOD thing that nursing is the way it is. It leaves room in the field for those of us who have other priorities, but still want to make a difference, are still smart enough to make it through, and have been through enough of their lives to have a good idea of what they do and don't want (not saying this is the case with everyone but when I was 21 I didn't know my head from a hole in the ground - which explains the accounting and software programming degrees I persued prior to nursing - for some of us it takes life experience to know what we will be good at and what will complete us).
Maybe the scope of an LPN should be different somehow than it is. I don't know. Maybe the pay or scope of an RN should be different than it is (and BSN vs ADN... its hard to justify a BSN unless you want to go to an MSN or persue off-bedside simply because of the lack of pay increase). I don't know enough yet to know the details but I DO know that nursing would be short one very good, very smart, very caring nurse, if there was no LPN program, and I have a feeling that I am not alone...
Forget for a moment the amount of people who chose LPN/ADN routes instead of BSN...we have 1 school an hour away that has a BSN program (and the first half of that BSN is general education courses anyways...), but 3 schools in this same area that offer LPN or LPN/ADN RN programs. Thats an awful lot of nurses our little corner of the world would need to replace, if our schools did not exist. Plus starting with an LPN program, or an ADN RN program, you can transition via online routes much easier than you could if you started from scratch needing to go online, due to location. Not everyone lives in a big city with access to 4 year universities (we have two here actually and only one of them has a nursing program...) so just try to imagine the logistics of living somewhere that has no nursing programs AT ALL because LPN/ADN RN programs have been done away with, and having to staff hospitals/outpatient surgical centers/nursing homes. If there are shortages now (which I admit is regional but was the reason for my program starting up) then just imagine what it would be like if you took away the nurses that our little "inadequate" programs are adding to the community every year or two.
I actually agree with most of what you say. Since most LPN programs are affiliated with 2 yr or community colleges, it would make sense to ramp those programs up to ADN-aren't most LPN programs already about 15 months? Increase it to the two years.
There is a lot of disparity and bad feelings out there re: LPNs, it would eliminate all of those issues. What to do with current LPNs out there who want to advance? Offer a course that "fills in" the perceived gaps, 6 to 10 months, something accessible and affordable, to bring current LPNs up.
I'm not talking about people losing jobs. Provide this is to american born nurses through some of the stimulus dollars. This area of health care deserves it, nurses are and will always be the backbone of healthcare. The ADN vs BSN part of the controversy. ADNs will do what they do now, work toward the BSN, for whatever the reasons. The BSNs that love bedside care will still be where they are, the ones who desire administrative positions will still be where they are. LTC? Nurses who like it will work it. It can only be an improvement.
Two of the biggest roadblocks I see with most LPNs wanting to bridge over to an ADN degree, and subsequently a BSN:
1)Most ADN programs (the ones in my area, anyway) require one year of prerequisite work (it has been mentioned in a previous post that a lot of LPNs who made it through their programs have credits that are basically worthless and that is mostly true), which basically turns a two-year program into a three-year program. This is discouraging to lots of individuals, myself included. Yes, I GET the whole "education is important" thing. However, your average RN is not going to be performing surgery or making other medical diagnoses, so why do we need advanced A&P classes? It is educational elitism, pure and simple. BTW, some of these prereq classes also have other math and science prereqs which further the time and money we must spend to obtain said degree.
2)Lots of ADN programs are very difficult to get in to because of waitlists, etc. there is one program in my area which, until recently, had a lottery every semester. Out of 300 qualified applicants, TEN NAMES were drawn. TEN. Part of the reason for this is a lack of clinical sites, but there are also issues with expanding programs d/t schools not being willing to pay instructors what they are worth.
The more I read about the old 3-year hospital diploma program, the more I like the sound of it. Many of us are solely bedside nurses and did not get into the field to go into management and do other desk jobs. Bring back the 3-year diplomas!!!
My son was born with many different medical issues. He spent a month in the NICU where I was taught all of his cares, such as trach suctioning, cleaning, and changing, as well as how to administer food and medicine into his g-tube, etc. Due to all of his medical needs we were not able to go home until he had private duty nursing set up. He had mostly RNs and one LPN. I must say my experience was not a good one with the LPN. She did not suction how I taugh her to, nor did she listen to me (mothers know best!). Hpwever, I do not feel that it had anything to do with her schooling, I had those issues with the RNs as well. I chose to eliminate all nursing care when my son was about 4 months old and care for him myself. While I am not a nurse, I know a lot of medical things! I can clean a trach site, and change all of the dressing without any assistance. I believe that any LPN can be just as good as an RN if she/he has the heart for it (what I feel is the most important aspect of nursing) experience and practice. As far as having to work in a nursing home when ypu are an LPN, not so...be a private duty nurse. You will get to know the parents of the patient (if you work with minors) as well as the patient, and develop a relationship with them! Since caring for my son, I have learned that nursing is my calling, and I plan to start classes in the Fall!
Please, please, please repeat this statement verbatim to all of your instructors and fellow nursing classmates on the first day or school.
My son was born with many different medical issues. He spent a month in the NICU where I was taught all of his cares, such as trach suctioning, cleaning, and changing, as well as how to administer food and medicine into his g-tube, etc. Due to all of his medical needs we were not able to go home until he had private duty nursing set up. He had mostly RNs and one LPN. I must say my experience was not a good one with the LPN. She did not suction how I taugh her to, nor did she listen to me (mothers know best!). Hpwever, I do not feel that it had anything to do with her schooling, I had those issues with the RNs as well. I chose to eliminate all nursing care when my son was about 4 months old and care for him myself. While I am not a nurse, I know a lot of medical things! I can clean a trach site, and change all of the dressing without any assistance. I believe that any LPN can be just as good as an RN if she/he has the heart for it (what I feel is the most important aspect of nursing) experience and practice. As far as having to work in a nursing home when ypu are an LPN, not so...be a private duty nurse. You will get to know the parents of the patient (if you work with minors) as well as the patient, and develop a relationship with them! Since caring for my son, I have learned that nursing is my calling, and I plan to start classes in the Fall!
Okay, don't flame me, I'm speaking from my experience only. Firstly, in the hospital I work at, LPN's are being phased out. As one leaves, they replace her/him with an RN. So we have very few LPN's in the hospital setting because of this.
I've been there 17 years. So I've known many LPN's. A few who were stellar nurses, who had years of practice and made a point to ask question and do research on their own.
The majority of the LPN's the I've known, did not have the educational background to understand hardly any pathophysiology, how certain medications worked, what the lab values actually meant - therefore, they did poorly when they had a patient who was starting the "downhill slide". They wouldn't realize it until it was too late. Many of them felt they were just a knowledgeable as an RN and gave the RN's attitude. I could usually nip that in the bud quickly by asking them questions about their patient labs, meds, pathophys, etc... they just didn't have the education.
LPN's are primarily trained to do tasks. Which is why you can get your LPN from a trade school - where as RN's have to have a college education. That is a BIG difference between the two.
I have nothing against LPN's at all, just stating facts and situations that I myself have experienced. I do think that considering the route health insurance is going, people are waiting to come to the hospital longer, arriving sicker, and unfortunately, leaving too soon in many instances. Given this, I do believe LPN's should be phased out of the hospital setting - because the acuity is getting higher. If they remain in the hospital setting, they should not have a patient assignment, but be there to assist the RN.
Okay, don't flame me, I'm speaking from my experience only. Firstly, in the hospital I work at, LPN's are being phased out. As one leaves, they replace her/him with an RN. So we have very few LPN's in the hospital setting because of this.
I've been there 17 years. So I've known many LPN's. A few who were stellar nurses, who had years of practice and made a point to ask question and do research on their own.
The majority of the LPN's the I've known, did not have the educational background to understand hardly any pathophysiology, how certain medications worked, what the lab values actually meant - therefore, they did poorly when they had a patient who was starting the "downhill slide". They wouldn't realize it until it was too late. Many of them felt they were just a knowledgeable as an RN and gave the RN's attitude. I could usually nip that in the bud quickly by asking them questions about their patient labs, meds, pathophys, etc... they just didn't have the education.
LPN's are primarily trained to do tasks. Which is why you can get your LPN from a trade school - where as RN's have to have a college education. That is a BIG difference between the two.
I have nothing against LPN's at all, just stating facts and situations that I myself have experienced. I do think that considering the route health insurance is going, people are waiting to come to the hospital longer, arriving sicker, and unfortunately, leaving too soon in many instances. Given this, I do believe LPN's should be phased out of the hospital setting - because the acuity is getting higher. If they remain in the hospital setting, they should not have a patient assignment, but be there to assist the RN.
Sorry, but this is my opinion.
Blessings
hey Babs, i totally agree with your comments. i'm in LPN school right now and was in an ASN a few yrs ago and will return after i get my LPN. the hospital where i'm thinking of working has pretty much phased out LPN's in med/surg and other areas except rehab and snf units.
my question is, since i'm just in my first month of LPN school, how is it that an LPN wouldnt know what lab values mean when they have the same classes that an rn has in the first year of school? take for instance the LPN in a snf gets labs on residents and my have to hold some medications because of an abnormal lab value. i dunno but it's scary to think that LPN's wouldnt know common lab values regardless of where they work.
If I were brand new out of high school with no family I would have the time and money. But at this stage in the game (in my 30s) I just am not interested in any career where I can't start working until I'm half way through a decade. Not saying that I won't go there, because I plan to go "all the way" but I think that its a really GOOD thing that nursing is the way it is. It leaves room in the field for those of us who have other priorities, but still want to make a difference, are still smart enough to make it through, and have been through enough of their lives to have a good idea of what they do and don't want (not saying this is the case with everyone but when I was 21 I didn't know my head from a hole in the ground - which explains the accounting and software programming degrees I persued prior to nursing - for some of us it takes life experience to know what we will be good at and what will complete us).
aloevera
861 Posts
How do you know what this nurse is getting ????? or not getting????