NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

Published

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

Specializes in Critical Care.

Another telling statement. Forget 'technical' vs. 'professional'. The term RN itself is a slimy term and should be done away with for the insult that it obviously is - in favor, of course, of 'advance practice' status.

You BSNs, you see, YOU are holding back the 'profession'.

http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm:

"Doors to future educational changes should be kept open, but moving education to the BSN level is the first step. Noting the increasing complexity of health care, some nurse leaders are concerned that a baccalaureate degree is no longer sufficient preparation for practice. They advocate master's or even doctoral level education and abandonment of the Registered Nurse title in favor of an advanced practice role that is clearly distinguished from entry into practice at the associate degree level. While raising the educational bar even higher can possibly be justified in terms of the knowledge base needed for advancing professional practice, we need to pay attention to past lessons and view with caution any proposed solution that would further split the profession and separate nurses with college degrees from the ranks of bedside caregivers."

Hmmm, I wonder just what 'past lessons' this is talking about?

I also wonder how you are going to get all these ANP and DRs to stay at the bedside. But never fear, just like PT/OT 'professions', hospitals can always 'farm' those bedside jobs out to 'techs'. And then, they can hire ANPs to be the managers. Wow, pay a few ANPs 120k/yr to be nursing 'managers', and the remaining bulk of the nursing staff can NOW be bought for 20k/yr.

What a grand idea! The bedside 'nurse' might no longer be a 'nurse', but their 'managers' sure know lots more about nursing. . . Enough to even, finally, be 'professionals'.

~faith,

Timothy.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Exactly why I'm working in Michigan. I would not have been able to work full-time as an RN in Canada where I live or have the job opportunities that I do now. What they are offering is part-time, yet they will want you to work full-time hours without the benefits that goes with being full-time (dental, prescriptions, optometry, etc), or even better (insert sarcasm) they will offer "temporary part-time" or "temporary full-time" that they can have go on indefinately.

So am I hearing that nurses leave jobs in Canada for the same reasons the leave jobs in the US? And who is Canada expecting to take care of their patients? Has the shortage become such a crisis that the public is demanding changes. Until the public gets involved, nothing will change.

Wow, this is some thread. I posted awhile back, but I can see that the discussion isn't really about NYS requiring nurses to obtain a 4-year degree, but really what the nurses involved in the discussion think about their own place on the Nursing Totem Pole. And it's disturbing to me, a brandy-new graduate (completed RN program last week).

My program was a notoriously difficult ADN one. Never described anywhere as "technical" in nature; it included a full complement of liberal arts/ humanities requirements. Somewhere in this thread I saw that someone had posted the difference in the ADN and BSN programs by the college's description of each. I found that difference surprising, since the description of the BSN program matched MY ADN program quite well. The college refers to it as a professional program, not a 'technical' one. For those looking for that adjective, people are usually referred to the 9-month BOCES/VOTEC LPN program.

At any rate, what's really killing me here is that during the two years of hospital clinicals, I didn't see anyone I could pick out as a BSN over those who were ADN RNs. Sometimes, it was hard to distinguish the LPNs, either. Point is, NO ONE wore the BSN education as some kind of beacon of enlightenment from which they could shine better patient care. The RNs were RNs, period. Perhaps, in the lunchrooms when students weren't around, this argument flourished. But, for what it's worth, the patients sure didn't know the difference. Good care=good care.

I hope I don't find myself on a unit with BSNs who deem me less "professional" than themselves....I guarantee that won't go over well. Neither will an attitude that I am less worthy of being a nurse, or that my degree is somehow a shortcut.

I distinctly remember a situation during a student rotation that had some of my classmates in the same setting as students from a nearby BSN program: all of us were within the same number of months of graduation, and those particular BSN students didn't have a clue how to do a pretty simple procedure that our students had been doing for about a month. Not trying to rile BSNs, just point out that this 'technical' skill was less instructed to the BSNs than the ADN students at that point. So I would have a hard time believing that they were "better" at nursing than any of us merely by measure of the length of time they spent in school.

I hope I'll be impressed more by my future co-workers' skills and attitudes than their credentials!

So am I hearing that nurses leave jobs in Canada for the same reasons the leave jobs in the US? And who is Canada expecting to take care of their patients? Has the shortage become such a crisis that the public is demanding changes. Until the public gets involved, nothing will change.

Subee, where I live in Canada there should not be a nursing shortage, EVER. There are more than enough nurses that live in my area that would work in Canada if the job opportunities were available. Hospitals are understaffing to cut costs, at the expense of the nurses (and patients), not because there are not enought nurses to fill vacancies. Canadian nurses are not able to find full-time jobs, that is one of the biggest incentives for many to leave. People are not going to want to get into a profession that has poor job prospects. Hospitals are offering part-time, casual, or temporary positions. They want staff that they can move around to whatever shift they want and at their beck and call. Part-time nurses can wind up working full-time hours without the benefits and the added bonus of jumping from days to afternoons to nights. Self-scheduling isn't an option. Vacations can be turned down at the last minute. No such thing as agency nurses in the hospitals.

Restructuring/downsizing of hospitals has lead to more people being taken care of in long-term care facilities or at home, where nurses are paid less with inferior benefits as compared to being employed by a hospital. The city I live in went from having 4 hospitals to 2, numerous nurses were laid off because of this restructuring. This same situation also happened elsewhere in Ontario.

Despite having worked for years (>10) at one facility as an RPN/LPN, I could not get a full-time job as an RN once I was done school, I was offered a temporary position. Generous of them, eh? Only 2 hospitals in this city, oh and they streamlined services, trauma at one, OB/L&D at the other, dialysis at one, NICU/Peds at the other, Pysch at one, oncology at the other, etc. I applied at the other hospital, and they also offered me a temporary position.

Here is a site from ONA (Ontario Nurses Association)

http://www.stillnotenoughnurses.ca/

The equivalent of between 7,000 and 8,600 full-time jobs, Canada-wide, is being performed by nurses working overtime!

There is almost a perfect correlation between overtime and sick time; additional hours worked are later taken off.

Over the course of a year, some 16 million nursing hours are lost to injury and illness in Canada, equalling about 9,000 fulltime jobs.

They neglect to mention how many part-time nurses are working full-time hours, or OT for straight time.

The latter 1990s saw Community Care Access Centres (CCACs) boost their patronage of for-profit agencies by some 265 per cent as a market-driven system became the rule in homecare provision. The result was not a positive one for health professionals as unionized employers like the Victorian Order of Nurses (VON) were pushed out by firms paying lower salaries. And while the current provincial government has pumped over $100 million into homecare with the objective of boosting staff levels, evidence suggests that the proportion of full-time employment is not improving.

Specializes in MICU & SICU.
Good deal. If you want to be treated as a professional, why not require what is considered a professional degree. In just about every field I can think of that is a bachelor's , and in some cases a master's.

bob

I agree. For the profession of nursing to gain respect it must advance the academic requirement of to become a registered nurse. We could only hope that with increase academic status comes comensation. Most institutions provide little or no incentive for nurses to obtain their BSN. A wave of change is necessary to further the profession of nursing.

Specializes in MICU & SICU.
There is an initiative afoot to require NP's to have a PhD.

I am not sure this is such a great idea. What about PA's then will they still continue to walk around with their BA in art history and a MS and make the equivalent to a PhD NP. That would be something.

Once again...advocate the absolute minimum requirements to do our job. Thats sure to impress, the paper pushers and provide future change. Good thinking.

When will the AS crowd realize, its not about how good of a nurse you are, etc---Nursing is something all of us agree is based on experience, not our formal education...But, its about a standard entry level and something considered "professional" to advance us along with ALL of the other BS mandated fields. But nah, we just need the bare essentials to keep us trucking on. Why bother changing, right? Not like anyone is going to fix it...I mean a workforce of BSN grads wouldnt have the power to change anything right? We would be just as much of a weak voice for the profession I am sure.

Good logic, there.

Once again...advocate the absolute minimum requirements to do our job. Thats sure to impress, the paper pushers and provide future change. Good thinking.

When will the AS crowd realize, its not about how good of a nurse you are, etc---Nursing is something all of us agree is based on experience, not our formal education...But, its about a standard entry level and something considered "professional" to advance us along with ALL of the other BS mandated fields. But nah, we just need the bare essentials to keep us trucking on. Why bother changing, right? Not like anyone is going to fix it...I mean a workforce of BSN grads wouldnt have the power to change anything right? We would be just as much of a weak voice for the profession I am sure.

Good logic, there.

And once again......

Let's examine how much the BSN requirement has advanced the nursing profession in Canada.

Canadian nurses are so happy and successful in their careers, and have so much power as a profession, that they are coming down here in droves to work just to get a full time job with benefits.

Specializes in Telemetry/Med Surg.

In other words, the ADNs and diploma nurses need to validate their self worth and self importance, and the best way to do that is to believe the administration when they tell them these things. Administration then doesn't have to be the bad guy, and make a big thing out depriving nurses with a higher degree a higher rate of pay. They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker. And the administration is laughing all the way to their board room meetings.

JMHO.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Please tell me you're joking. I have never read such rubbish in a long, long time.

Your statement is laughable, actually. Sad, but laughable.

Specializes in ICU, telemetry, LTAC.

Okay, I give up. I've been logged in all blinking day. Three times I've tried to post a response to this farking thread, and each time it logs me out before I'm done.

All this is making my head spin!

I'll be retiring (early) and will leave it to the rest of you to duke it out. The only thing that scares me is that when my husband and I are older and in need of professional care, that nursing will have imploded due to all the infighting going on and heaven only knows what a mess we will have left over. If you think there is a nursing shortage now, just wait.

Please, everyone, stop beating each other up!

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Subee, where I live in Canada there should not be a nursing shortage, EVER. There are more than enough nurses that live in my area that would work in Canada if the job opportunities were available. Hospitals are understaffing to cut costs, at the expense of the nurses (and patients), not because there are not enought nurses to fill vacancies. Canadian nurses are not able to find full-time jobs, that is one of the biggest incentives for many to leave. People are not going to want to get into a profession that has poor job prospects. Hospitals are offering part-time, casual, or temporary positions. They want staff that they can move around to whatever shift they want and at their beck and call. Part-time nurses can wind up working full-time hours without the benefits and the added bonus of jumping from days to afternoons to nights. Self-scheduling isn't an option. Vacations can be turned down at the last minute. No such thing as agency nurses in the hospitals.

Restructuring/downsizing of hospitals has lead to more people being taken care of in long-term care facilities or at home, where nurses are paid less with inferior benefits as compared to being employed by a hospital. The city I live in went from having 4 hospitals to 2, numerous nurses were laid off because of this restructuring. This same situation also happened elsewhere in Ontario.

Despite having worked for years (>10) at one facility as an RPN/LPN, I could not get a full-time job as an RN once I was done school, I was offered a temporary position. Generous of them, eh? Only 2 hospitals in this city, oh and they streamlined services, trauma at one, OB/L&D at the other, dialysis at one, NICU/Peds at the other, Pysch at one, oncology at the other, etc. I applied at the other hospital, and they also offered me a temporary position.

Here is a site from ONA (Ontario Nurses Association)

http://www.stillnotenoughnurses.ca/

The equivalent of between 7,000 and 8,600 full-time jobs, Canada-wide, is being performed by nurses working overtime!

There is almost a perfect correlation between overtime and sick time; additional hours worked are later taken off.

Over the course of a year, some 16 million nursing hours are lost to injury and illness in Canada, equalling about 9,000 fulltime jobs.

They neglect to mention how many part-time nurses are working full-time hours, or OT for straight time.

The latter 1990s saw Community Care Access Centres (CCACs) boost their patronage of for-profit agencies by some 265 per cent as a market-driven system became the rule in homecare provision. The result was not a positive one for health professionals as unionized employers like the Victorian Order of Nurses (VON) were pushed out by firms paying lower salaries. And while the current provincial government has pumped over $100 million into homecare with the objective of boosting staff levels, evidence suggests that the proportion of full-time employment is not improving.

Its not that different here. Many hospitals are under pressure to close beds or close entirely because they are underutilized. If all the nurses available were working, we'd have no shortage here, either. Hiring two part-timers instead of one with benefits is also usual. As for the Victorian Order of Nurses situation, its only the expression of the bad side of capitalism. Sick people are becoming second class citizens. But I believe that we have the money to do things, its just that we do the most procedures to the wrong patients. The frail elderly are on their own if they have no family to advocate for them. If the hospital can generate income performing procedures to patients that can't consent (or not consent!) to them, then the procedure will be done until every oriface has been explored. I don't know if the situation would be different if the docs were on salary.

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